MAP FEEDBACK: Crossfire EX

An EX variant of Crossfire. There is also a playspace/sightline change on defense side around the bridge connecting back stairs to main building. Defense can no longer stand on the bridge and overwatch Crane. What are your thoughts on how this is playing out?
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Comments

  • c5.Wafflesc5.Waffles Posts: 39Player
    The changes made to the crane area are incredible, it was a big choke point for both sides and with the window being moved on the lower building and the bridge being blocked off it creates a whole new feel to that area, and with that it creates new tactics. Thanks for the hard work guys!
  • [Dev]Rawrster[Dev]Rawrster Posts: 329Developer
    Some guys I was playing with today thought the flag was too easy to extract. Does anyone have any additional thoughts on that?
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    - the changes to the map seems better (extra walls, sandbags, less window, no chair, etc) .
    - the extraction is a hop skip and a jump from the pickup location. not sure if changing extraction site would make a difference. you can get basically anywhere on the map within a few seconds from that pickup location. was kinda hoping for a bigger play space for this map to alleviate that issue..


  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    - for comparison, breach map's extraction is probably 3x further than this and allows defenders many ways to defend.
    - this is like going to bottom boiler with the flag to win.


  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Crossfire's a tough map to balance. Part of it is just the size -- there are so many grenades that hit in so many important areas. Scaling up the entire playspace to create some more separation between areas would make a big difference just by itself.

    There were a few changes made that really hurt the ability of defense to cover crane/south. In the past, there were a number of options for covering this area -- smoke & cross to crane, watch from bottom stairs/south bridge, watch from spawn, play up close from the cinder blocks.

    With this release, the south bridge angle has been removed. This also nerfs options for a player in that staircase; he has just the one peek location, or has to commit to jumping off the bridge to get some of those alternate angles.

    The second change is the removal of the area underneath the bomb room window. This means that defenders no longer have a covered path to the cinder blocks.

    The third change is pulling back the east room window so that it's no longer visible from the south stairs, giving assault a more covered means of pushing into this area.

    I think reverting at least one of these three changes would help give defense some more options in this area. I do think that the current open build offers a bit too much flexibility in this corner of the map for defense and the intent behind the changes was warranted.

    The changes in this area had a big effect on the extract game mode's viability in the matches I saw today. The old bomb room is a very dangerous area to play in; no corner is safe from grenades due to the open ceiling and overall map size. This meant it was as popular as ever to breach the bomb room from middle bridge. I frequently saw a flash into boxes, a quick snatch of the intel, and a fast escape around the corner and off the balcony.

    The issue defenders run into is how to respond. For one round, I was in bomb room and heard the intel be taken. I swung my head around just in time to see the defender turn the corner onto the balcony, but... I had no option from there. The bomb room window offers no sightlines to extract, the bridge is now covered, they were too far away for me to jump off balcony & hope to have a shot, and getting all the way around to the stairs was also too far. Maybe jumping off the south bridge? Defense's options become very limited (and predictable!) once assault has the package, especially if it's going off the middle catwalk.


    A window here with a shutter to limit its coverage to the extract could be another interesting change. I wouldn't worry about it affecting assault's pushes in this corner too much given its exposure along the mid-map bridge. Excuse the poor MSPaint mock-up.
    czCqbsv.png
  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    The changes to this map take away so much. Very upsetting to see what was done here.

    Alot of the assault and defense decision making is completely taken away around crane
    You cant get on the couch? really??? terrible.

    So much gameplay was straight eliminated from this map. Sad.
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  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    The map has become extremely offensive .. feels like the defense has no place to go anymore.. far more angles of attack.. also made it play even smaller for some reason. Maybe because of the extraction spot being too close to where its picked up. Maybe if you had to bring it back to the attacking spawn the map would open up some.
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  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    I just wonder what went through the head of whoever proposed these changes.

    They make NO SENSE.
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  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    Should be either no open roofs, or no grenades on this map.
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • =IK=.Scooby=IK=.Scooby Posts: 119Player
    I agree completely with both eK and Colts.

    The changes made were completely unnecessary and the switch from bomb to flag/laptop/whatever was an awful one. Either keep it bomb or I guess you could make it C4 too. Extract on this map, though? No. Just no.
  • ddra-ddra- Posts: 454Player
    The blocking of the south bridge view really makes no sense. Why block the view? And I agree with ekcomm, why can't I get up on the couch?

    If you want meaningful changes, take bcpulls advice and scale up the playspace.
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  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    i don't mind the changes. mostly because i am tired of the same maps for 1000+ hours. so the few tweaks are extremely welcome in my book. but the objective doesn't favor defense atm.


  • -warpain.iog--warpain.iog- Posts: 30Player
    The map needs to be at least 30% larger for it to play well. Really the simplest way to put it.
  • valid|Dropvalid|Drop Posts: 33Beta Tester
    edited April 2015
    Personally like the changes. Could careless about being able to climb the crane. I feel that takes away nothing from the major issue with the map alone. The map needs a larger playing space. How you open it up, is clearly up to you, but needs more angles. Simple. Even without the changes. The map needs to be bigger regardless.
    I agree with Colts regarding Grenades.
    Objective, Extraction should be the Assaults Spawn if you ask me. Either way, unless the map is bigger. Its a short run to Extract no matter how you look at it. Siege isn't much farther either, but that's not flag anymore. Think activating a bomb, or something of that nature was a better fit for the size of the map, like you did with Siege.
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    Siege is still flag I believe this is just another game type on the same map
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  • [Dev]Rawrster[Dev]Rawrster Posts: 329Developer
    =IK=Doba= wrote: »
    Siege is still flag I believe this is just another game type on the same map
    This is correct. Everything you are playing this week is an ADDITION to what we currently have, not a replacement.
    I just wonder what went through the head of whoever proposed these changes.

    They make NO SENSE.

    In the current (open beta) version of Crossfire, a single defender can anchor up on the bridge and lock down the crane route pretty easily. This included seeing deep into East Building (hence the window move). Defenders can still cover these areas from under bridge and South Stairs, which I think will work out fine on the C4 version, but I can certainly see the changes causing some issues for Defense responding to the Attackers grabbing the flag. We can certainly continue to look at the space (as BCPull mentioned, maybe 2 of the 3 changes was enough) but some changes we certainly warranted to that area.

    As for moving the extract point to Attack Spawn, that was our initial setup with the map. Even though it takes a bit longer to get it back there, it seemed like an easier cap point. Attackers almost always control North Building if the flag gets picked up early, making it a pretty simple extract once the flag cappers make it there. With the current extract point defense can still have a chance to control south stairs, under bridge, and the courtyard making a quick hop down into courtyard a riskier option.

    As for a size increase to the map, I can certainly see that being something people would want. At this point it is probably too late in the game for that and it is also worth noting that Crossfire is one of our most popular maps right now. It consistently ranks in the Top 5 for both Rounds and Time Played in a week and I have to imagine the size has something to do with that for certain players.
  • -warpain.iog--warpain.iog- Posts: 30Player
    As for a size increase to the map, I can certainly see that being something people would want. At this point it is probably too late in the game for that and it is also worth noting that Crossfire is one of our most popular maps right now. It consistently ranks in the Top 5 for both Rounds and Time Played in a week and I have to imagine the size has something to do with that for certain players.

    If increasing map size isn't an option at the moment, I believe putting some kind of roof (or more roof like obstacles) on the old bomb room would help. That is such a key area for defense and right now its basically an unplayable position because of how easy (and quick) it is to throw a mindless grenade from the assault side. The roof would help defense immensely, which is needed given most of the opt-in changes favors the assault side.
  • ddra-ddra- Posts: 454Player
    As for a size increase to the map, I can certainly see that being something people would want. At this point it is probably too late in the game for that and it is also worth noting that Crossfire is one of our most popular maps right now. It consistently ranks in the Top 5 for both Rounds and Time Played in a week and I have to imagine the size has something to do with that for certain players.

    With the window movement of the East building (please remove those sand bags), and the squaring of the corner by bricks, the bridge really does not need to be covered. Do not condone poor strategic gameplay by altering the core design. A smart player will nade the bridge or deploy fogs.
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  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    edited April 2015
    In the current (open beta) version of Crossfire, a single defender can anchor up on the bridge and lock down the crane route pretty easily. This included seeing deep into East Building (hence the window move). Defenders can still cover these areas from under bridge and South Stairs, which I think will work out fine on the C4 version, but I can certainly see the changes causing some issues for Defense responding to the Attackers grabbing the flag. We can certainly continue to look at the space (as BCPull mentioned, maybe 2 of the 3 changes was enough) but some changes we certainly warranted to that area.

    No, they weren't. You just made assault about ten times easier than it already was. You have taken depth out of the map. You have made crane 1 dimensional. Now assault can narrow the defensive positions down to about two spots. Which nades will quickly clear up. Me and my team spent hours trying to figuere out the perfect fog locations to make a push on this part of the map viable in competition and we did it and thats how it should be. Players working hard to make it work. You just spoon fed assault an easy route simply because "Anchoring up" on south bridge is in your opinion TOO POWERFUL? Are you kidding me? You looked at all the positions one can go supported on in the game.... and THAT was the one you choose was soo overpowered that it deserved a map change to make it less OP? Come on Rawrster, I like your work.. but this is a joke.

    This change should be rolled back.

    Also.... no vaulting onto the couch in north??? like seriously???

    unplayable and unwarranted.
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  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited April 2015
    [quote]Me and my team spent hours trying to figuere out the perfect fog locations to make a push on this part of the map viable in competition[/quote]
    That's why I feel like change is this area was a fine idea! (Even if it went a bit too far.) How much time did you need to spend perfecting defense strategies in that area? I know I've put more effort into figuring out how to attack well on Crossfire than how to defend; defense seems like it's mostly a game of 1) predicting, then dodging, the enemy grenades and 2) listening for assault footsteps.
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