you guys need to give it a rest and wait for the next update.
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you're still crying "random"... let it go.
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this feature is a move towards adding some depth to an otherwise shallow ADS game...
Any mechanic giving you input you can't predict is a bad mechanic, people will accidentally get kills from flinching and accidentally shooting their assailant or someone else, enemy or friendly in the head.
spouting nonsense in hopes his cqb scope doesn't get nerfed???
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YOU CAN PREDICT IT. you can predict that if you get shot you will flinch. with that knowledge, you should try to avoid getting shot to remain effective. and you should avoid firing your weapon with teammates in front of you, or they should avoid walking in front of you... smh. get yourself a teammate to help you engage your enemies, instead of this silly 1v1 aim for the face and hold down mouse 1 shallow game you seem to be trying to preserve...
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by your same logic we shouldn't have smokes or flashes, because you can't fathom/predict when it's effect will dissipate. "it's so random?!?!"
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firing blind through smoke and flash bangs is random player behavior, not random game mechanic. hitting your teammates while blind is not random... please. the only one to blame is the person firing the weapon, not the game. random player behavior =/= random game behavior. it is totally predictable/avoidable behavior.
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the "flinch" does not force bullets to exit your weapon barrel. that's all you.
If the game mechanic makes you flinch and misplaces your shot, it is the games fault. Newsflash, you should already be avoiding to get shot. It's kind of key when it comes to not dying. Your counter argument of nades and flashbangs, flat out retarded. Shooting through smoke and fogs is to be expected. Being punished for taking the extra millisecond to place a headshot? BS. Being punished for having slightly higher ping? BS. Predicting where your sight goes when you take a hit? No, that doesnt happen. You can react quickly to it, but you cant counter act it the way you counter act recoil. You havent even pretended to consider all the bad effects of having aimpunch will occur. At the same time you've completely disregarded to mention how this would improve anything.
We've been explaining how it would decrease skill gap but no one explains why it increases, it just does.
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As far as randomness, go look at the code that was posted earlier in the thread, the hitstun as they call it is calculated with a series of random functions, so it is random and unpredictable.
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NewTargetRot.Yaw = ((FRand() > 0.50) ? Rand(int(Abs(float(HitStunViewRot.Yaw)))) : -Rand(int(Abs(float(HitStunViewRot.Yaw)))));
Why it's so difficult to understand that aimpunch is bad when 2 players start shooting at eachother at the same time, 1 shooting for the head 1 shooting for torso. The one shooting for the head should always win, it goes without saying. B-b-b-ut what if he has 51 ping and the one shooting for the torso has 50? Assuming they both shot at the exact same moment, the one shooting for the head now loses out on the duel entirely. Great way to put more emphasis on ping differences.
Boiling down aim punch and tagging to a single effect on 'skill gap' is the wrong way to approach it.
So, first, let's separate the two effects that have been brought up: aim punch (your aim flinches when shot) and tagging (usually a slowing effect on player movement when hit, not sure what exactly is implemented in AA right now on that front).
Tagging penalizes over-exposing yourself and sprinting through an exposed space in the hopes that you'll only get hit once or twice. This makes proper use of fogs more important. It rewards smart player movement.
Aim punch rewards first hit. Does it penalize the M24 player looking for a reaction shot after he's already been hit? Yeah, probably. That's a feature, not a problem. It forces players to think more carefully about where they're aiming and how they're exposed: if you're trying to cover two different angles at once, you're less likely to get the first hit. The 'skill gap' emphasis you're looking to find is in rewarding good player positioning, use of cover, cursor placement, and reaction time.
Every single feature doesn't have to make twitch mouse movement accuracy more important; skill is too broad an idea for that. Aim punch rewards good play through the way it penalizes bad play.
Besides, aim punch as currently implemented looks like just a small flick down. (The fact that it wasn't really brought up until opt-in 3 speaks to how subtle it is, though I wonder if this was loosely connected to players saying recoil and weapon handling felt different?) That's just converting headshots into chest shots and chest to legs; it's not going to totally screw you up.
As for the "I could out-aim the guy that already shot me three times by hitting him in the head once" argument -- well, you could still do that, it's just going to be a little harder now with the extra penalty. You let yourself get shot unexpectedly from an angle you weren't adequately covering, so you have to display an even greater degree of control to win the engagement. That's increased skill gap in that you have a greater hurdle to overcome. A truly elite player could still land the reaction shot, a lesser one will be thrown by the aimpunch.
Why it's so difficult to understand that aimpunch is bad when 2 players start shooting at eachother at the same time, 1 shooting for the head 1 shooting for torso. The one shooting for the head should always win, it goes without saying. B-b-b-ut what if he has 51 ping and the one shooting for the torso has 50? Assuming they both shot at the exact same moment, the one shooting for the head now loses out on the duel entirely. Great way to put more emphasis on ping differences.
Well ping is pretty much the only good argument against it imho. But look also at it that way:
let's say this situation you described happens few times for both players, with new experience they know that exposing your whole torso is too risky so they will start exposing as little as possible- meaning the head usually and now the person with better aim will win. Of course I know it won't make all the situations where two people are fully exposed disappear suddenly but I think it's worth to consider trade-offs with this.
We've been explaining how it would decrease skill gap but no one explains why it increases, it just does.
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As far as randomness, go look at the code that was posted earlier in the thread, the hitstun as they call it is calculated with a series of random functions, so it is random and unpredictable.
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NewTargetRot.Yaw = ((FRand() > 0.50) ? Rand(int(Abs(float(HitStunViewRot.Yaw)))) : -Rand(int(Abs(float(HitStunViewRot.Yaw)))));
Read my post for an explanation on how it can raise the skill ceiling.
You're only looking at part of the code. HitStunViewRot.Yaw is 0. I don't think I pasted the default values, but there it is.
Read my post for an explanation on how it can raise the skill ceiling.
Fair point. I guess we have different views in what aim punch brings to the table and how a reward/penalty system works best. I'm not a fan of over penalizing players by messing with their controls. A bad play is already punished by loss of life which is the single most valuable resource in the game.
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I've yet to see a game where players enjoy aim punch, not even CS players seem to enjoy it even though in there it has a specific goal that is punishing not buying armor.
the alternative we have already tested for 2 years. that being, we just have no reaction to being hit.... and thus a guy just holds down mouse one til his magazine is empty... even though he took 3 bullets to the chest and his weapon sight didn't flinch an inch...
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btw, idk what the game code calls it or other games may call it, but i call it a "flinch" and the game needs some level of it in the game to address people just coming at you like cyborgs.
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news flash, even if this was paintball, you would flinch when you got hit. please don't use the word "simulation" or "random". other popular fps games have this system. just stop crying and adjust. maybe try to avoid getting shot. crazy concept!
Yes, other games do have it. People also hate it in other games for reducing the skillgap. If you come in guns blazing I should be rewarded for one tapping you in the head. With the flinch this doesn't happen and instead punishes me for not going "hurr durr booletz errywhere"
Lower skill gap lmao...It actually increases the skillgap. Rewards the person for accuracy and the better player is going to be able to readjust their aim quicker. So NO IT DOES NOT LOWER THE SKILL GAP. IT INCREASES IT, but nice try.
and how many of your complaining actually played the optin and tried it?
Read my post for an explanation on how it can raise the skill ceiling.
I've yet to see a game where players enjoy aim punch, not even CS players seem to enjoy it even though in there it has a specific goal that is punishing not buying armor.
I feel like I see more complaints about tagging implementation than aim punch, though I seem to recall they made some changes to tagging recently. I feel like CS aimpunch threads tend to be met with "buy kevlar, duh".
Either way... there's a huge selection bias. People that don't like a feature will complain about it, people that are happy it's present are enjoying the game or commenting on other things.
Also keep in mind that the CS weapon balance overall is more complicated. SMGs were used very rarely in GO until the last few months in spite of the potential benefits tagging and aimpunch systems conferred on them. Meanwhile, pistols like the Tec-9 and FiveSeven were considered too strong due to moving accuracy and relative immunity to tagging. It all also ties in to that game's economy system and what odds a team on eco should really have to win...
My point is that it's much more complicated than "aimpunch = good or bad" for CS because the mechanic is going to have different effects on different types of weapons. In AAPG, it's a much more symmetric effect: we're all using fairly similar weapons with no economy system or eco round balance questions.
the alternative we have already tested for 2 years. that being, we just have no reaction to being hit.... and thus a guy just holds down mouse one til his magazine is empty... even though he took 3 bullets to the chest and his weapon sight didn't flinch an inch...
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btw, idk what the game code calls it or other games may call it, but i call it a "flinch" and the game needs some level of it in the game to address people just coming at you like cyborgs.
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news flash, even if this was paintball, you would flinch when you got hit. please don't use the word "simulation" or "random". other popular fps games have this system. just stop crying and adjust. maybe try to avoid getting shot. crazy concept!
Yes, other games do have it. People also hate it in other games for reducing the skillgap. If you come in guns blazing I should be rewarded for one tapping you in the head. With the flinch this doesn't happen and instead punishes me for not going "hurr durr booletz errywhere"
Lower skill gap lmao...It actually increases the skillgap. Rewards the person for accuracy and the better player is going to be able to readjust their aim quicker. So NO IT DOES NOT LOWER THE SKILL GAP. IT INCREASES IT, but nice try.
and how many of your complaining actually played the optin and tried it?
Not if you keep the supression. SAW will just be even more OP than it already is. Just shoot first to get supression, then have one of your badly aimed shots hit for aim punch. You can adjust your aim while shooting and the enemy can't do anything but spray back without aiming properly.
the alternative we have already tested for 2 years. that being, we just have no reaction to being hit.... and thus a guy just holds down mouse one til his magazine is empty... even though he took 3 bullets to the chest and his weapon sight didn't flinch an inch...
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btw, idk what the game code calls it or other games may call it, but i call it a "flinch" and the game needs some level of it in the game to address people just coming at you like cyborgs.
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news flash, even if this was paintball, you would flinch when you got hit. please don't use the word "simulation" or "random". other popular fps games have this system. just stop crying and adjust. maybe try to avoid getting shot. crazy concept!
Yes, other games do have it. People also hate it in other games for reducing the skillgap. If you come in guns blazing I should be rewarded for one tapping you in the head. With the flinch this doesn't happen and instead punishes me for not going "hurr durr booletz errywhere"
Lower skill gap lmao...It actually increases the skillgap. Rewards the person for accuracy and the better player is going to be able to readjust their aim quicker. So NO IT DOES NOT LOWER THE SKILL GAP. IT INCREASES IT, but nice try.
and how many of your complaining actually played the optin and tried it?
Not if you keep the supression. SAW will just be even more OP than it already is. Just shoot first to get supression, then have one of your badly aimed shots hit for aim punch. You can adjust your aim while shooting and the enemy can't do anything but spray back without aiming properly.
Agree on the suppression part, I think it should be less for sure at that point, but that's another topic.
I do agree with colts and shhfifty in some way, it might increase the skill gap for good prefirers. If you do the prefiring well, you will now actually have something extra to fight the corner campers. Because prefiring in itself is firing before you see them and before they can react, their aim wont be at the corner anymore as soon as you shoot them.
Furthermore, it also shows who can actually quickly get his aim back in case it is needed, thus also eliminating people who only aim at a certain place.
Now I must admit I am also a player which mainly hits other people because I have my aimpoint at the right place already, but the prefiring is one of the many aspects which makes a good player a great player, and the aim punch definitely favours pre-firers.
At last, it finally lets people pay more attention on not getting hit. Which should be a pretty much no-brainer.
the alternative we have already tested for 2 years. that being, we just have no reaction to being hit.... and thus a guy just holds down mouse one til his magazine is empty... even though he took 3 bullets to the chest and his weapon sight didn't flinch an inch...
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btw, idk what the game code calls it or other games may call it, but i call it a "flinch" and the game needs some level of it in the game to address people just coming at you like cyborgs.
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news flash, even if this was paintball, you would flinch when you got hit. please don't use the word "simulation" or "random". other popular fps games have this system. just stop crying and adjust. maybe try to avoid getting shot. crazy concept!
Yes, other games do have it. People also hate it in other games for reducing the skillgap. If you come in guns blazing I should be rewarded for one tapping you in the head. With the flinch this doesn't happen and instead punishes me for not going "hurr durr booletz errywhere"
Lower skill gap lmao...It actually increases the skillgap. Rewards the person for accuracy and the better player is going to be able to readjust their aim quicker. So NO IT DOES NOT LOWER THE SKILL GAP. IT INCREASES IT, but nice try.
and how many of your complaining actually played the optin and tried it?
Not if you keep the supression. SAW will just be even more OP than it already is. Just shoot first to get supression, then have one of your badly aimed shots hit for aim punch. You can adjust your aim while shooting and the enemy can't do anything but spray back without aiming properly.
Read my post for an explanation on how it can raise the skill ceiling.
Fair point. I guess we have different views in what aim punch brings to the table and how a reward/penalty system works best. I'm not a fan of over penalizing players by messing with their controls. A bad play is already punished by loss of life which is the single most valuable resource in the game.
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I've yet to see a game where players enjoy aim punch, not even CS players seem to enjoy it even though in there it has a specific goal that is punishing not buying armor.
You forgot to mention the penalty incurred when under 80% health. CS even has unique cases of aimpunch even with armor. It used to be so bad that when someone sprayed your feet with a p90 your screen spazzed out, this has been changed since 2013 if I recall. Aimpunch is just a bad game mechanic that valve refuses to admit is horrendous.
Boiling down aim punch and tagging to a single effect on 'skill gap' is the wrong way to approach it.
So, first, let's separate the two effects that have been brought up: aim punch (your aim flinches when shot) and tagging (usually a slowing effect on player movement when hit, not sure what exactly is implemented in AA right now on that front).
Both of which are not needed in aapg, weapons have a fast enough fire rate as is, displacing your sight for even 250 ms is enough to get you killed. (250ms is the median reaction time for humans)
Tagging isn't needed either, with 4 rounds to kill a player at 100% health, with the m4 firing at 700? RPM. Why would you need sticky glue to keep them in place? It only gets worse when you look at the saw with 800 RPM.
It works in other games like CSGO because it's a different game entirely, even movement speed in that game is insane. Before you say, but sprinting in aapg is so fast, you can't shoot while running in AAPG like you can in CSGO.
Tagging penalizes over-exposing yourself and sprinting through an exposed space in the hopes that you'll only get hit once or twice. This makes proper use of fogs more important. It rewards smart player movement.
Aim punch rewards first hit. Does it penalize the M24 player looking for a reaction shot after he's already been hit? Yeah, probably. That's a feature, not a problem. It forces players to think more carefully about where they're aiming and how they're exposed: if you're trying to cover two different angles at once, you're less likely to get the first hit. The 'skill gap' emphasis you're looking to find is in rewarding good player positioning, use of cover, cursor placement, and reaction time.
Aim punch does reward first hit, which is the issue at hand. It doesn't only affect the m24 as you all would have everyone believe, it has an effect on every single weapon. Take a look at the shotgun, as it is right now, you either kill them with your first shell or you die. Arguably it can work in favor of shotgun where you hit them, they spaz and check out the latest fluorescent lamps on innerhospital giving you enough time for a follow up shell to drop them. But that doesn't make it any more fair. Even pistols could arguably benefit from it, but I hardly see that happening with their low damage to torso encouraging you to aim for the head. Even their fire rate is low compared to assault rifles. So really, aimpunch only favours higher RPM.
Or are there plans for different values of the aimpunch being inflicted depending on the range and caliber? m24 to the legs doesnt kill you at 100%, should it make you look at the moon? M14 rounding corners prefiring, taking 2/3 of your health per hit, how much does aimpunch affect you then? Again, shotgun. How many can even stand up much less point a rifle after taking a shell to their chest?
If you're trying to cover 2 angles at once with the m24, you're doing it wrong. Goes for every weapon really.
Every single feature doesn't have to make twitch mouse movement accuracy more important; skill is too broad an idea for that. Aim punch rewards good play through the way it penalizes bad play.
Besides, aim punch as currently implemented looks like just a small flick down. (The fact that it wasn't really brought up until opt-in 3 speaks to how subtle it is, though I wonder if this was loosely connected to players saying recoil and weapon handling felt different?) That's just converting headshots into chest shots and chest to legs; it's not going to totally screw you up.
As for the "I could out-aim the guy that already shot me three times by hitting him in the head once" argument -- well, you could still do that, it's just going to be a little harder now with the extra penalty. You let yourself get shot unexpectedly from an angle you weren't adequately covering, so you have to display an even greater degree of control to win the engagement. That's increased skill gap in that you have a greater hurdle to overcome. A truly elite player could still land the reaction shot, a lesser one will be thrown by the aimpunch.
You're already being rewarded for hitting the other player, it takes health off them, which in turn gives them an accuracy penalty below 80% that gets even more severe for every % below 25. Just because it wasn't brought up untill opt in 3 doesnt mean people didnt notice it in opt in 1 and questioning the devs sanity. Myself included. It doesnt actually just convert head shots to torso shots, like you said, it converted my headshot into spraying the gravel full of lead. The offput is much more than you percieve it to be. Wether it increases as you health is lower remains a question. But it wouldnt surprise me.
Boiling down aim punch and tagging to a single effect on 'skill gap' is the wrong way to approach it.
So, first, let's separate the two effects that have been brought up: aim punch (your aim flinches when shot) and tagging (usually a slowing effect on player movement when hit, not sure what exactly is implemented in AA right now on that front).
Both of which are not needed in aapg, weapons have a fast enough fire rate as is, displacing your sight for even 250 ms is enough to get you killed. (250ms is the median reaction time for humans)
Tagging isn't needed either, with 4 rounds to kill a player at 100% health, with the m4 firing at 700? RPM. Why would you need sticky glue to keep them in place? It only gets worse when you look at the saw with 800 RPM.
It works in other games like CSGO because it's a different game entirely, even movement speed in that game is insane. Before you say, but sprinting in aapg is so fast, you can't shoot while running in AAPG like you can in CSGO.
Not all engagements happen at close range. Get further out and you're looking at 6 or more hits to kill. Add the reduced chance to hit a distant moving target and tagging can have real value in affecting how effective a weapon is at long range.
Sight displacement -- let's look at your "I was aiming for his head" issue and what aimpunch actually does in-game. First, a medium distance (across courtyard of Crossfire):
And at close range:
So your headshot becomes a bodyshot and now your opponent's affected by the dreaded aimpunch...
Tagging isn't only meant to happen while players are firing. Its effects at range are every bit as important. Normal movement in AA is also pretty quick. While running happens at ~11.5 MPH, walking is at ~7 MPH, and tactical walking at ~5 MPH. Normal movement's pretty quick. Combine that with leans and crouch-spams and players have a pretty impressive ability to dodge bullets at any range.
Tagging penalizes over-exposing yourself and sprinting through an exposed space in the hopes that you'll only get hit once or twice. This makes proper use of fogs more important. It rewards smart player movement.
Aim punch rewards first hit. Does it penalize the M24 player looking for a reaction shot after he's already been hit? Yeah, probably. That's a feature, not a problem. It forces players to think more carefully about where they're aiming and how they're exposed: if you're trying to cover two different angles at once, you're less likely to get the first hit. The 'skill gap' emphasis you're looking to find is in rewarding good player positioning, use of cover, cursor placement, and reaction time.
Aim punch does reward first hit, which is the issue at hand. It doesn't only affect the m24 as you all would have everyone believe, it has an effect on every single weapon. Take a look at the shotgun, as it is right now, you either kill them with your first shell or you die. Arguably it can work in favor of shotgun where you hit them, they spaz and check out the latest fluorescent lamps on innerhospital giving you enough time for a follow up shell to drop them. But that doesn't make it any more fair. Even pistols could arguably benefit from it, but I hardly see that happening with their low damage to torso encouraging you to aim for the head. Even their fire rate is low compared to assault rifles. So really, aimpunch only favours higher RPM.
Or are there plans for different values of the aimpunch being inflicted depending on the range and caliber? m24 to the legs doesnt kill you at 100%, should it make you look at the moon? M14 rounding corners prefiring, taking 2/3 of your health per hit, how much does aimpunch affect you then? Again, shotgun. How many can even stand up much less point a rifle after taking a shell to their chest?
If you're trying to cover 2 angles at once with the m24, you're doing it wrong. Goes for every weapon really.
"check out the latest fluorescent lamps" -- How much have you played with the aimpunch? In every test I've done, it always forces the player's sight lower.
I don't know if there are plans for caliber- or damage-based effects, but right now there's no difference between a pistol hit and an M14 hit.
Every single feature doesn't have to make twitch mouse movement accuracy more important; skill is too broad an idea for that. Aim punch rewards good play through the way it penalizes bad play.
Besides, aim punch as currently implemented looks like just a small flick down. (The fact that it wasn't really brought up until opt-in 3 speaks to how subtle it is, though I wonder if this was loosely connected to players saying recoil and weapon handling felt different?) That's just converting headshots into chest shots and chest to legs; it's not going to totally screw you up.
As for the "I could out-aim the guy that already shot me three times by hitting him in the head once" argument -- well, you could still do that, it's just going to be a little harder now with the extra penalty. You let yourself get shot unexpectedly from an angle you weren't adequately covering, so you have to display an even greater degree of control to win the engagement. That's increased skill gap in that you have a greater hurdle to overcome. A truly elite player could still land the reaction shot, a lesser one will be thrown by the aimpunch.
You're already being rewarded for hitting the other player, it takes health off them, which in turn gives them an accuracy penalty below 80% that gets even more severe for every % below 25. Just because it wasn't brought up untill opt in 3 doesnt mean people didnt notice it in opt in 1 and questioning the devs sanity. Myself included. It doesnt actually just convert head shots to torso shots, like you said, it converted my headshot into spraying the gravel full of lead. The offput is much more than you percieve it to be. Wether it increases as you health is lower remains a question. But it wouldnt surprise me.
Each point below 80 increases the penalty, the points below 25 just increase the penalty more quickly.
Headshot -> gravel would've had to be at significant distance (see images above), which also should mean you have more options for disengaging. The desired message could very well be "you're losing this fight, back off."
The effect doesn't appear to depend on your health right now.
These tests have to be taken with a grain of salt because they are being done in a controlled environment. There were multiple occasions in the opt-in where I got shot and my camera turned almost 90 degrees down. Probably because the low server tick made the penalty of multiple shots stack or something.
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Disregarding how good or bad aim punch is as a design choice, in a game with this bad of a netcode its not gonna work. Its great to go around a corner, aim at someone and then have the camera pulled down because someone else with 300 ping shot me 10 seconds ago...
Forgive me if I'm wrong.. but people were asking for rewards for the 'shooter'? not happy a person could be shot at and they could simply turn 180 and shoot back in the face..
Looks to me like another case of blow up in your face feedback
If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.
Comments
I love this community!
See edit to my post a bit above.
If the game mechanic makes you flinch and misplaces your shot, it is the games fault. Newsflash, you should already be avoiding to get shot. It's kind of key when it comes to not dying. Your counter argument of nades and flashbangs, flat out retarded. Shooting through smoke and fogs is to be expected. Being punished for taking the extra millisecond to place a headshot? BS. Being punished for having slightly higher ping? BS. Predicting where your sight goes when you take a hit? No, that doesnt happen. You can react quickly to it, but you cant counter act it the way you counter act recoil. You havent even pretended to consider all the bad effects of having aimpunch will occur. At the same time you've completely disregarded to mention how this would improve anything.
Pretty much what I think about it but that guy claimed it would increase the skill gap. Interested on how that works.
I love this community!
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As far as randomness, go look at the code that was posted earlier in the thread, the hitstun as they call it is calculated with a series of random functions, so it is random and unpredictable.
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NewTargetRot.Yaw = ((FRand() > 0.50) ? Rand(int(Abs(float(HitStunViewRot.Yaw)))) : -Rand(int(Abs(float(HitStunViewRot.Yaw)))));
So, first, let's separate the two effects that have been brought up: aim punch (your aim flinches when shot) and tagging (usually a slowing effect on player movement when hit, not sure what exactly is implemented in AA right now on that front).
Tagging penalizes over-exposing yourself and sprinting through an exposed space in the hopes that you'll only get hit once or twice. This makes proper use of fogs more important. It rewards smart player movement.
Aim punch rewards first hit. Does it penalize the M24 player looking for a reaction shot after he's already been hit? Yeah, probably. That's a feature, not a problem. It forces players to think more carefully about where they're aiming and how they're exposed: if you're trying to cover two different angles at once, you're less likely to get the first hit. The 'skill gap' emphasis you're looking to find is in rewarding good player positioning, use of cover, cursor placement, and reaction time.
Every single feature doesn't have to make twitch mouse movement accuracy more important; skill is too broad an idea for that. Aim punch rewards good play through the way it penalizes bad play.
Besides, aim punch as currently implemented looks like just a small flick down. (The fact that it wasn't really brought up until opt-in 3 speaks to how subtle it is, though I wonder if this was loosely connected to players saying recoil and weapon handling felt different?) That's just converting headshots into chest shots and chest to legs; it's not going to totally screw you up.
As for the "I could out-aim the guy that already shot me three times by hitting him in the head once" argument -- well, you could still do that, it's just going to be a little harder now with the extra penalty. You let yourself get shot unexpectedly from an angle you weren't adequately covering, so you have to display an even greater degree of control to win the engagement. That's increased skill gap in that you have a greater hurdle to overcome. A truly elite player could still land the reaction shot, a lesser one will be thrown by the aimpunch.
Well ping is pretty much the only good argument against it imho. But look also at it that way:
let's say this situation you described happens few times for both players, with new experience they know that exposing your whole torso is too risky so they will start exposing as little as possible- meaning the head usually and now the person with better aim will win. Of course I know it won't make all the situations where two people are fully exposed disappear suddenly but I think it's worth to consider trade-offs with this.
Edit
Excellent post BCPull.
You're only looking at part of the code. HitStunViewRot.Yaw is 0. I don't think I pasted the default values, but there it is.
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I've yet to see a game where players enjoy aim punch, not even CS players seem to enjoy it even though in there it has a specific goal that is punishing not buying armor.
Lower skill gap lmao...It actually increases the skillgap. Rewards the person for accuracy and the better player is going to be able to readjust their aim quicker. So NO IT DOES NOT LOWER THE SKILL GAP. IT INCREASES IT, but nice try.
and how many of your complaining actually played the optin and tried it?
Either way... there's a huge selection bias. People that don't like a feature will complain about it, people that are happy it's present are enjoying the game or commenting on other things.
Also keep in mind that the CS weapon balance overall is more complicated. SMGs were used very rarely in GO until the last few months in spite of the potential benefits tagging and aimpunch systems conferred on them. Meanwhile, pistols like the Tec-9 and FiveSeven were considered too strong due to moving accuracy and relative immunity to tagging. It all also ties in to that game's economy system and what odds a team on eco should really have to win...
My point is that it's much more complicated than "aimpunch = good or bad" for CS because the mechanic is going to have different effects on different types of weapons. In AAPG, it's a much more symmetric effect: we're all using fairly similar weapons with no economy system or eco round balance questions.
Not if you keep the supression. SAW will just be even more OP than it already is. Just shoot first to get supression, then have one of your badly aimed shots hit for aim punch. You can adjust your aim while shooting and the enemy can't do anything but spray back without aiming properly.
I love this community!
Agree on the suppression part, I think it should be less for sure at that point, but that's another topic.
I do agree with colts and shhfifty in some way, it might increase the skill gap for good prefirers. If you do the prefiring well, you will now actually have something extra to fight the corner campers. Because prefiring in itself is firing before you see them and before they can react, their aim wont be at the corner anymore as soon as you shoot them.
Furthermore, it also shows who can actually quickly get his aim back in case it is needed, thus also eliminating people who only aim at a certain place.
Now I must admit I am also a player which mainly hits other people because I have my aimpoint at the right place already, but the prefiring is one of the many aspects which makes a good player a great player, and the aim punch definitely favours pre-firers.
At last, it finally lets people pay more attention on not getting hit. Which should be a pretty much no-brainer.
Yah well supression is bad.
You forgot to mention the penalty incurred when under 80% health. CS even has unique cases of aimpunch even with armor. It used to be so bad that when someone sprayed your feet with a p90 your screen spazzed out, this has been changed since 2013 if I recall. Aimpunch is just a bad game mechanic that valve refuses to admit is horrendous.
Both of which are not needed in aapg, weapons have a fast enough fire rate as is, displacing your sight for even 250 ms is enough to get you killed. (250ms is the median reaction time for humans)
Tagging isn't needed either, with 4 rounds to kill a player at 100% health, with the m4 firing at 700? RPM. Why would you need sticky glue to keep them in place? It only gets worse when you look at the saw with 800 RPM.
It works in other games like CSGO because it's a different game entirely, even movement speed in that game is insane. Before you say, but sprinting in aapg is so fast, you can't shoot while running in AAPG like you can in CSGO.
Aim punch does reward first hit, which is the issue at hand. It doesn't only affect the m24 as you all would have everyone believe, it has an effect on every single weapon. Take a look at the shotgun, as it is right now, you either kill them with your first shell or you die. Arguably it can work in favor of shotgun where you hit them, they spaz and check out the latest fluorescent lamps on innerhospital giving you enough time for a follow up shell to drop them. But that doesn't make it any more fair. Even pistols could arguably benefit from it, but I hardly see that happening with their low damage to torso encouraging you to aim for the head. Even their fire rate is low compared to assault rifles. So really, aimpunch only favours higher RPM.
Or are there plans for different values of the aimpunch being inflicted depending on the range and caliber? m24 to the legs doesnt kill you at 100%, should it make you look at the moon? M14 rounding corners prefiring, taking 2/3 of your health per hit, how much does aimpunch affect you then? Again, shotgun. How many can even stand up much less point a rifle after taking a shell to their chest?
If you're trying to cover 2 angles at once with the m24, you're doing it wrong. Goes for every weapon really.
You're already being rewarded for hitting the other player, it takes health off them, which in turn gives them an accuracy penalty below 80% that gets even more severe for every % below 25. Just because it wasn't brought up untill opt in 3 doesnt mean people didnt notice it in opt in 1 and questioning the devs sanity. Myself included. It doesnt actually just convert head shots to torso shots, like you said, it converted my headshot into spraying the gravel full of lead. The offput is much more than you percieve it to be. Wether it increases as you health is lower remains a question. But it wouldnt surprise me.
Sight displacement -- let's look at your "I was aiming for his head" issue and what aimpunch actually does in-game. First, a medium distance (across courtyard of Crossfire):
And at close range:
So your headshot becomes a bodyshot and now your opponent's affected by the dreaded aimpunch...
Tagging isn't only meant to happen while players are firing. Its effects at range are every bit as important. Normal movement in AA is also pretty quick. While running happens at ~11.5 MPH, walking is at ~7 MPH, and tactical walking at ~5 MPH. Normal movement's pretty quick. Combine that with leans and crouch-spams and players have a pretty impressive ability to dodge bullets at any range.
"check out the latest fluorescent lamps" -- How much have you played with the aimpunch? In every test I've done, it always forces the player's sight lower.
I don't know if there are plans for caliber- or damage-based effects, but right now there's no difference between a pistol hit and an M14 hit.
Each point below 80 increases the penalty, the points below 25 just increase the penalty more quickly.
Headshot -> gravel would've had to be at significant distance (see images above), which also should mean you have more options for disengaging. The desired message could very well be "you're losing this fight, back off."
The effect doesn't appear to depend on your health right now.
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Disregarding how good or bad aim punch is as a design choice, in a game with this bad of a netcode its not gonna work. Its great to go around a corner, aim at someone and then have the camera pulled down because someone else with 300 ping shot me 10 seconds ago...
Looks to me like another case of blow up in your face feedback