So, the saw irl is super sweet to shoot and typically uses an eclan, so I'm told. So don't make it unrealistic. Use a realistic solution to balance weapons. ...Why aren't the run speeds adjusted to reflect the extra weight as opposed to the m4/m16?
Nothing is realistic about the saw being the easiest to control. Every other weapon in the game has more kick and recoil.
if you just simply fire a magazine into a wall with each m4, m16, m249...
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you can see m4/m16 has deviation to the recoil. your weapon kicks up and to the right, but deviates several degrees. sometimes it kicks up and right 10 degrees. sometimes it kicks 50 degrees... there's deviation... this promotes burst and single shot, especially long range, especially without any zoom optics available...
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the aapg m249 is not deviating. it simply kicks the weapon up to the right about 10 degrees consistently. hence very easy, reliable, predictable to spray and drag the mouse for laser accuracy. and with the elcan it is sad in the hands of a competent player... much like the acog on the m4 earlier in the beta... as i said, i don't understand this logic of allowing the elcan.
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i don't think "increasing recoil" for m249 is the answer. i think you need to give the recoil "more deviation" so it is less predictable and reliable and straight.
Didn't play any Opt in's but the sound in the videos is really messed up,like a badly set up EQ with too much highs zero mids and not enough lows + a messed up dull reverb dolby surround set up.I don't see this anywhere near complete or playable compared to the current Beta.Just makes my ears bleed and you say it sounds like this after setting up your sound software to improve it?Not just terrible but painful to listen.The same as you use some predefined "FPS" EQ setting on your sound card software that some sponsored pro gamer preset for the manufacturer and you shake your head and question how is it possible to play like this without getting terminal loss of hearing in the long run.
I think there are two options, either we increase the deviation on SAW as stated before me by shhfifty or we reduce suppression effect on SAW and a bit on M16/M4 and also reduce deviation on M16/M4.
I think there are two options, either we increase the deviation on SAW as stated before me by shhfifty or we reduce suppression effect on SAW and a bit on M16/M4 and also reduce deviation on M16/M4.
surprisingly suppression is not the issue. A majority of the time i find that people die before any noticeable suppression effect even has a chance to occur. What shfifty said is good. Plus it should take longer to come to sights as well as recover from running.
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Time and time again i see competent players get the first shot at a better angle with sights up and still die because their sub-par opponent yolo hip fired with the SAW and didint have any issue controlling their gun.
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1. i don't think the weapons should take longer to shoot after sprinting, or take longer to ADS. there shouldn't be a paper rock scissors element predetermining who is going to win a gunfight based on arbitrary numbers of which gun can fire first..
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i think the m249 balance "should" come into play when the gunman has to reload. that time to reload should take longer. as a result, it is the same drawback in cqb for when a shotgun or m24 misses a shot in cqb. they incur a reload time that will get them killed in cqb, as it should be. a longer reload would force the role to play further back from the front lines... make him play more cautiously and let his teammates lead. basically he should need teammates in front of him to cover him while he reloads. if you can force the m249 gunman to reload, then you have him at a distinct disadvantage. but for that to happen you need to make his recoil deviate imo so his weapon takes more effort to be effective.
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2. to help enforce that design, you could even make it so if you carry a SAW/RPK, then you can't carry a 2nd primary weapon...
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3. still not understanding the logic behind the access to elcan... just like was done with the m4 acog, the devs should remove the elcan from the AR role, and add the m249 to the DMR role with elcan, and let DMR slotted players choose between m249, m16, m14...
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4. and i think the m249 and m14 should both have the blinding suppression strength nerfed severely. they tend to blind people who are well behind cover as if some kind of near miss when in fact they are nowhere near a corner of visibility. you could classify that as "broken".
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5. unrelated, the m14 needs to go back to 10 round magazine. right now it's most useful as an auto shotgun. the mag needs to be nerfed back to the original size.
Yeah I used it today on a euro server and it was pretty amazing. Elcan snipes across the map, hipfire kills, ADS cqb, it all just seemed so easy. And this was with a 150 ping in SSHD server....
1. i don't think the weapons should take longer to shoot after sprinting, or take longer to ADS. there shouldn't be a paper rock scissors element predetermining who is going to win a gunfight based on arbitrary numbers of which gun can fire first..
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i think the m249 balance "should" come into play when the gunman has to reload. that time to reload should take longer. as a result, it is the same drawback in cqb for when a shotgun or m24 misses a shot in cqb. they incur a reload time that will get them killed in cqb, as it should be. a longer reload would force the role to play further back from the front lines... make him play more cautiously and let his teammates lead. basically he should need teammates in front of him to cover him while he reloads. if you can force the m249 gunman to reload, then you have him at a distinct disadvantage. but for that to happen you need to make his recoil deviate imo so his weapon takes more effort to be effective.
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I agree with everything you said except the reload. With a saw when used properly you rarely have to reload for the entire round. The round times and the 100 clip unless your spraying and praying aimlessly does not require them to reload so this will not be an accurate disadvantage for the saw needs more.
as i said, take away the ability for M249 to carry another primary. even take away their pistol..
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but i understand that won't change the effectiveness of the weapon before you have to reload. that's where the recoil deviation comes in.. and removal of the elcan scope...
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but if a SAW gunman knew from the start that he had no backup weapon, and had a long reload time, he would likely not go risking running into enemy territory all by himself.
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you could even make it so the SAW gunman role couldn't get rid of his weapon for a new one unless he was completely depleted of ammo... because it would be uncharacteristic for a person of that role to abandon his weapon...
Taken from wikipedia and other gun nut sites : m4 with aimpoint engaging targets out to 480 meters(300 yards) depending on the shooter,m249 is a section weapon, therefore effective up to 600 meters (375 yards) range with long range ELCAN optics especcialy effective on 280-600 meters.There are a couple of types available and in use long and short barrel.Short barrel is commonly used in urban areas with aimpoint scope.
As for the game,it falls under a weapon class limited to only 2 person on each team and the aimpoint accuracy is even better than Elcan.Reload times take up to 3x of the m4 and m16.Controlling the recoil is just as hard on it as on the m4 in my opinion specially in spray mode.
It's a rock paper scissors situation,there should not be a clear winner and one rules them all weapon in any game,if you implement some of the changes people suggest in this topic the game will end up with an m4 dominance that is available for everyone on the teams thus making other weapons and limited number weapon classes useless.
if you just simply fire a magazine into a wall with each m4, m16, m249...
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you can see m4/m16 has deviation to the recoil. your weapon kicks up and to the right, but deviates several degrees. sometimes it kicks up and right 10 degrees. sometimes it kicks 50 degrees... there's deviation... this promotes burst and single shot, especially long range, especially without any zoom optics available...
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the aapg m249 is not deviating. it simply kicks the weapon up to the right about 10 degrees consistently. hence very easy, reliable, predictable to spray and drag the mouse for laser accuracy.
There is a point where recoil becomes uncontrollable and you have to stop spraying because the weapon kicks up ,is the mechanic different than the m4? yes but from what you wrote you would like it to be identical to the m4 in every way just with a 100 bullet mag + removing 2 extra mags and restriction to picking up other weapons and having no pistol?Why not delete the weapon and class alltogether.Also quoting yourself after 2 different opinions wont make me agree with it.
Dem@n is right, it is almost the same as m4 recoil and that an issue in my opinion. I think it's fair on public though with the spots limited to 2. Comparing SAW and m4 straight up though I'd prefer the SAW over the m4 any day.
Comments
Nothing is realistic about the saw being the easiest to control. Every other weapon in the game has more kick and recoil.
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you can see m4/m16 has deviation to the recoil. your weapon kicks up and to the right, but deviates several degrees. sometimes it kicks up and right 10 degrees. sometimes it kicks 50 degrees... there's deviation... this promotes burst and single shot, especially long range, especially without any zoom optics available...
-
the aapg m249 is not deviating. it simply kicks the weapon up to the right about 10 degrees consistently. hence very easy, reliable, predictable to spray and drag the mouse for laser accuracy. and with the elcan it is sad in the hands of a competent player... much like the acog on the m4 earlier in the beta... as i said, i don't understand this logic of allowing the elcan.
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i don't think "increasing recoil" for m249 is the answer. i think you need to give the recoil "more deviation" so it is less predictable and reliable and straight.
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surprisingly suppression is not the issue. A majority of the time i find that people die before any noticeable suppression effect even has a chance to occur. What shfifty said is good. Plus it should take longer to come to sights as well as recover from running.
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Time and time again i see competent players get the first shot at a better angle with sights up and still die because their sub-par opponent yolo hip fired with the SAW and didint have any issue controlling their gun.
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i think the m249 balance "should" come into play when the gunman has to reload. that time to reload should take longer. as a result, it is the same drawback in cqb for when a shotgun or m24 misses a shot in cqb. they incur a reload time that will get them killed in cqb, as it should be. a longer reload would force the role to play further back from the front lines... make him play more cautiously and let his teammates lead. basically he should need teammates in front of him to cover him while he reloads. if you can force the m249 gunman to reload, then you have him at a distinct disadvantage. but for that to happen you need to make his recoil deviate imo so his weapon takes more effort to be effective.
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2. to help enforce that design, you could even make it so if you carry a SAW/RPK, then you can't carry a 2nd primary weapon...
-
3. still not understanding the logic behind the access to elcan... just like was done with the m4 acog, the devs should remove the elcan from the AR role, and add the m249 to the DMR role with elcan, and let DMR slotted players choose between m249, m16, m14...
-
4. and i think the m249 and m14 should both have the blinding suppression strength nerfed severely. they tend to blind people who are well behind cover as if some kind of near miss when in fact they are nowhere near a corner of visibility. you could classify that as "broken".
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5. unrelated, the m14 needs to go back to 10 round magazine. right now it's most useful as an auto shotgun. the mag needs to be nerfed back to the original size.
LETS GO PENS
I agree with everything you said except the reload. With a saw when used properly you rarely have to reload for the entire round. The round times and the 100 clip unless your spraying and praying aimlessly does not require them to reload so this will not be an accurate disadvantage for the saw needs more.
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but i understand that won't change the effectiveness of the weapon before you have to reload. that's where the recoil deviation comes in.. and removal of the elcan scope...
-
but if a SAW gunman knew from the start that he had no backup weapon, and had a long reload time, he would likely not go risking running into enemy territory all by himself.
-
you could even make it so the SAW gunman role couldn't get rid of his weapon for a new one unless he was completely depleted of ammo... because it would be uncharacteristic for a person of that role to abandon his weapon...
As for the game,it falls under a weapon class limited to only 2 person on each team and the aimpoint accuracy is even better than Elcan.Reload times take up to 3x of the m4 and m16.Controlling the recoil is just as hard on it as on the m4 in my opinion specially in spray mode.
It's a rock paper scissors situation,there should not be a clear winner and one rules them all weapon in any game,if you implement some of the changes people suggest in this topic the game will end up with an m4 dominance that is available for everyone on the teams thus making other weapons and limited number weapon classes useless.
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