I don't like the phrase "it goes without saying". Let's say it and make it what it is.
I just want to be sure we aren't saying lets build a CS:GO-replica playstyle game and then mesh it with Army visuals and maps we'd like to see return. If it's just CS:GO re-skinned, it's a waste just the same. I'm with Whip in that the CS:GO gameplay just isn't fun for me. R6S is good fun, but not something I can play over and over either. AAO and AA3 I could enjoy. They were different and it felt like something the Army put some passion into. AAPG feels like the name it is, proving grounds. Proving grounds that they can build a game that isn't as full of bugs as AA3 I guess.
The competitive fps genre is...well...very competitive. AA vs. comp fps games like cs? uhmmm...yeah. I always liked AA for the authenticity and I think that this is it's strength, which should be kept in focus of the development - in my opinion.
The intention isn't to dethrone CS. The point is that a solid competitive game will be able to grow over time and maintain a player base whereas games that don't have a solid competitive community will decline fairly quickly. There are few examples in the gaming world these days that can maintain a viable, long standing community without it. Even AA2 started dying off when its competitive community started to leave.
Beyond that, a game that has competitive aspects tends to have a higher skill curve which gives people something to strive for over time. That is improving/getting better. There does need to be a good balance. I think that if you go too far onto "let's make everything based on comp" you'll end up with a CS clone. However, it's more of a let's make this game favor skill over random and let's do it the America's Army way. AA2 had quite the large comp community, just because you say a game is comp friendly doesn't mean it will be an arcade game or like CS.
At the end of the day, I'd personally expect the Army to put out a game that favors skill and being the best. The real Army would expect nothing less from its soldiers.
You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
America's Army has never been a MilSim and never will be.
(It is.. A Simulation FPS..)
America's Army is a Recruitment tool designed to suck in all them poor little young darlings into the US Military.
Where do you draw the line for realism? Is it ArmA or is it Counter Strike? Even Solitaire can be dicey with all them paper cuts!
People want a quick and easy "jump in and win" games. People don't want high entry barrier games requiring you to read a thesis manual along with uber skills just to run around a map and have fun.
Community creates the gameplay. In America's Army you can join servers where no one talks and your flamed for dying, or you can join servers that are vocally supportive and kind.
My reply to Keebler750 is;
Do we need another half baked unoptimised laggy first person shooter made on Unreal Engine 4?
My answer is no...
I think they should take steps to increase the skill ceiling. As it sits right now, there's not a huge learning curve to the game, especially compared to CSGO.
I'd suggest:
Get rid of the suppression effects from gunfire. Stop rewarding people for missing.
- The First B.S.! Suppression Effects are useful in many situations: Literally Suppressing an Enemy for make them can't move. And make them harder to shoot. If you want to get rid of it, How about new players? They'll have nothing!
Get rid of the suppression effects from nades, or at least significantly reduce it.
- 2nd B.S. Do you know what is "Shockwave".. It is necessary to feel someone concussion. (The Main Purpose of the M67 is killing somebody by a fragments btw)
Significantly decrease the visual effect of a flashbang that's not in your field of view. Flashbangs can be cooked. Make people throw them well.
- Sir, Do you even realized this ISN'T CSGO? AAPG(or AA series) is a Simulation FPS. although the AA:PG is more casual than the other AA series, this game is STILL realistic.
This opinion is total B.S. If the M84 Stun Grenade's effectiveness decreases when someone turn around, It will goes to the trashcan IMMEDIATELY. and the Generals will say: HOW THE #### IS THIS THING JUST PASSED THE PERFOMANCE EVALUATION?!
And think about in real life about a warzone. You're an Army Solder with the other 11 soldiers, Just entered the MOUT environment, Your Squad is trying to clear the building that 9 terrorists are in a SINGLE room.
You throw the flashbang, some of the terrorist just turned around, and boom! 4 men casualties.
Get rid of the exponentially increasing recoil with low HP. The penalty for low HP is low HP.
-Oh, once again this isn't CSGO cowboy. So you think you're able to shoot your gun nicely when you get shot by multiple times?
Consider reducing the radius on frag grenades. As with flashes, grenades can be cooked, so a good throw should be required.
- M84, M67, and M106 can be cooked ALREADY SINCE AA2.
And do you know how effective they're?
- M67 Fragmentation Grenade: 5m Kill zone, 15m casualty zone
- M84 Stun Grenade: ONLY ONE. METER. Even in real life.
Either remove supported positions or take further steps to balance them. Being able to strafe while ADS and firing is absurd. Minimal recoil, mostly behind cover and the ability to move from side to side while firing? What's the downside? I'd suggest at the very least forcing a dismount and remount animation to move. Possibly make ducking for cover take longer.
- Well if the enemy is HIGHLY skilled then they'll hit YOUR FOREHEAD! same goes by leaning. the smaller hit area you expose, the more chance to hit to your head.
Maps built for specific loadouts. AAPG allows for too many zoom optics per side, in my opinion. I also liked the predefined spawn points for each fire team position for AA2.
- This thing is only I liked..
I'm sure I can come up with more, but those are the main ones that come to mind for me.
tl;dr: All of your opinion is bad, this is simulation, not csgo,
Just my opinion, I want:
Slower or fast movement by equipping more or less equipment like the AA3's loadout system (Patrol Gear vs Full Battle Rattle)
More suppression effectiveness so I can suppress the snipers or a normal enemies
More customization system
Larger Maps....
Etc...
I'm questioning how much of a point there is in us discussing this as our goals seem to be mutually exclusive. I want a good, skillful GAME, and you want them to turn it into a simulator, which it has never been.
Whiplash made a great post about the old AA2 sway and CEM system. I think that would be a fantastic middle ground, so to speak. It would maintain a penalty for being suppressed while getting rid of the cheesy effect currently in place and replacing it with something that can be skillfully overcome. The problem with suppression as it currently exists is that it's not something you can best with skill. It takes luck, and that doesn't make for good gameplay.
I'm not sure how you misread my point about the nades and flashes. They can be cooked, so the player has the ability to decide exactly where they blow up. Taking that into account, the game should reward the good flashes, that blow up in front of someone and shouldn't reward for a flash that the person has time to look away from. Similar is true for frags. A good frag will still kill people, but you won't significantly damage, or potentially even kill, an enemy you're not aiming for.
Leaning and supported positions are two totally different things. Supported positions allow you to strafe, ADS and fire with minimal recoil and exposure. There's literally no downside. They're not as broken as they used to be, but they're still horribly unbalanced. Leaning, on the other hand, simply limits your exposure. Otherwise your recoil is no different than if you're just standing there in the open.
Obviously I understand the concept of penalties for low HP. I believe that the fact you can only take one shot, if that, before dying is penalty enough. If the game had an AA2 like CEM/sway system, I could see penalties being implemented in a way that can be learned. Larger, but predictable sway. Larger, but predictable recoil. The problem right now is that the recoil is already random. It's then increased exponentially as your health goes down. It's not something that can be learned, no matter how good you are.
TL;DR Replace as much RNG as possible with mechanics that can be learned. Balance OP features. Do less to reward bad play.
I don't like the phrase "it goes without saying". Let's say it and make it what it is.
I just want to be sure we aren't saying lets build a CS:GO-replica playstyle game and then mesh it with Army visuals and maps we'd like to see return. If it's just CS:GO re-skinned, it's a waste just the same. I'm with Whip in that the CS:GO gameplay just isn't fun for me. R6S is good fun, but not something I can play over and over either. AAO and AA3 I could enjoy. They were different and it felt like something the Army put some passion into. AAPG feels like the name it is, proving grounds. Proving grounds that they can build a game that isn't as full of bugs as AA3 I guess.
I'm not going for a CS clone. I'm not a big CS fan either.
I'm advocating for reasonable changes to the way the game currently functions. I'm advocating for changes that would place a higher value on player skill.
I'm advocating for changes that would place a higher value on player skill.
Yep, everybody understands that. A different point of view is : Avoiding flashes,suppression and aimpunch is a skill,too. The better aim still wins 90%. Even under these effects. Top players and top teams still won because they just played better. Tone it down, im ok with that but its just not gamebreaking imo.
As much as I’d love to see suppression effects, aim punch, and flashes changed, along with movement speed. It’s all just chitter chatter between players. Also, keep in mind that changing movement speed will not change how clunky player actions are. Player movement and actions are probably the worst I’ve seen in my FPS history. There is hardly any fluidity in movement and actions. But I’m sure if you ask any dev, beta, or hard core fan boy, most would say it’s a “feature.”
This is a waste of everyone’s time to bicker back and forth. Just ask real questions because supposively there is suppose to be some sort of transparency of workflow.
@aaHollywood
Does the Dev team have any intent on making any changes noted above before AAV is released.
People are highly critical, because we've been highly fractured relative to the series of the past that represented the Army more precisely. As disappointed as I am with AAPG, it's an okay game, but nothing I'd recommend or play regularly. I expect quite a few feel the same.
We are just giving them something to think about when making the new game, its up to them which direction to go, but I think we've expressed our thoughts and reasoning behind the direction we would go.
As disappointed as I am with AAPG, it's an okay game
Small tweaks here and there that your average pubber would probably not even notice or care for would make a big difference. Some people here argue against lowering suppression/aim punch as if they wouldn't play the game if it were lowered.
The players left dont care what you give them at this point, they're gonna play regardless. But making changes for possible growth is just not worth it I guess.
For the minimal amount of growth that would happen from it, not it's not worth it IMO.
Maybe not, but it will at least show the dev team that having excessive suppression, aim punch, etc. is detrimental to the game. The next America's Army game won't be out for three years unless they can somehow pull it off faster with a bigger team and it seems that, at least for a while, the Dev team will continue to develop AAPG. So if that's the case, then there's no reason why they can't fix up the issues with gameplay a bit.
I've started playing AAPG again on a custom map server, I have fun with it, but I strongly doubt I can maintain playing this game for another three years. Still, I'd like to be able to enjoy it for more than another month or two before getting bored of it again. If I had to play only official maps, I probably wouldn't have even reinstalled the game again. It's why I'd love a mapping contest, especially with the caveat that if the winning maps become popular and fit with the gameplay that they would be considered for inclusion in AA5.
You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
Hollywood has stated that it will be 2 different teams working on the 2 different games, unless I read that wrong. If it's as simple as changing some numbers and commenting out code, then go for it. If it means re-writing a system, drop the idea all together.
For the minimal amount of growth that would happen from it, no it's not worth it IMO.
They're making changed and new guns and features possibly anyway, including new map contests and skins. Is all that work gonna change the playing numbers? No... Am I gonna start playing again? No.
Make simple changes to what were saying and I just might.
Im not gonna sit here and say I can influence thousands of people to play AAPG again. But just possibly around 100 of the comp players that are on my steam list, which almost none of whom play the game anymore. Just maybe
Hollywood has stated that it will be 2 different teams working on the 2 different games, unless I read that wrong. If it's as simple as changing some numbers and commenting out code, then go for it. If it means re-writing a system, drop the idea all together.
I would imagine, and I could be completely wrong, that adjusting the frag grenade radius would be fairly straightforward. I'd like to see looking away from a flash add at least 100-150% to the distance compared to the 50% it adds now. Perhaps reducing the increased recoil with low HP could be easily accomplished.
Obviously things like changing the weapon sway to something predictable or altering suppression would be more work, but I still think it's worth the effort.
Hollywood has stated that it will be 2 different teams working on the 2 different games, unless I read that wrong. If it's as simple as changing some numbers and commenting out code, then go for it. If it means re-writing a system, drop the idea all together.
Thats the beauty of UE4 (or any modern game engine for that matter) is it allows the Developers to make a single code base that can be compiled for differnt enviroments with minimal issues ie. PC/Macintosh/Linux/Playstation/xBox and sometimes even Nintendo and Web Browser based operations.
Comments
I just want to be sure we aren't saying lets build a CS:GO-replica playstyle game and then mesh it with Army visuals and maps we'd like to see return. If it's just CS:GO re-skinned, it's a waste just the same. I'm with Whip in that the CS:GO gameplay just isn't fun for me. R6S is good fun, but not something I can play over and over either. AAO and AA3 I could enjoy. They were different and it felt like something the Army put some passion into. AAPG feels like the name it is, proving grounds. Proving grounds that they can build a game that isn't as full of bugs as AA3 I guess.
Make AA Great Again!
Beyond that, a game that has competitive aspects tends to have a higher skill curve which gives people something to strive for over time. That is improving/getting better. There does need to be a good balance. I think that if you go too far onto "let's make everything based on comp" you'll end up with a CS clone. However, it's more of a let's make this game favor skill over random and let's do it the America's Army way. AA2 had quite the large comp community, just because you say a game is comp friendly doesn't mean it will be an arcade game or like CS.
At the end of the day, I'd personally expect the Army to put out a game that favors skill and being the best. The real Army would expect nothing less from its soldiers.
I'm questioning how much of a point there is in us discussing this as our goals seem to be mutually exclusive. I want a good, skillful GAME, and you want them to turn it into a simulator, which it has never been.
Whiplash made a great post about the old AA2 sway and CEM system. I think that would be a fantastic middle ground, so to speak. It would maintain a penalty for being suppressed while getting rid of the cheesy effect currently in place and replacing it with something that can be skillfully overcome. The problem with suppression as it currently exists is that it's not something you can best with skill. It takes luck, and that doesn't make for good gameplay.
I'm not sure how you misread my point about the nades and flashes. They can be cooked, so the player has the ability to decide exactly where they blow up. Taking that into account, the game should reward the good flashes, that blow up in front of someone and shouldn't reward for a flash that the person has time to look away from. Similar is true for frags. A good frag will still kill people, but you won't significantly damage, or potentially even kill, an enemy you're not aiming for.
Leaning and supported positions are two totally different things. Supported positions allow you to strafe, ADS and fire with minimal recoil and exposure. There's literally no downside. They're not as broken as they used to be, but they're still horribly unbalanced. Leaning, on the other hand, simply limits your exposure. Otherwise your recoil is no different than if you're just standing there in the open.
Obviously I understand the concept of penalties for low HP. I believe that the fact you can only take one shot, if that, before dying is penalty enough. If the game had an AA2 like CEM/sway system, I could see penalties being implemented in a way that can be learned. Larger, but predictable sway. Larger, but predictable recoil. The problem right now is that the recoil is already random. It's then increased exponentially as your health goes down. It's not something that can be learned, no matter how good you are.
TL;DR Replace as much RNG as possible with mechanics that can be learned. Balance OP features. Do less to reward bad play.
I'm not going for a CS clone. I'm not a big CS fan either.
I'm advocating for reasonable changes to the way the game currently functions. I'm advocating for changes that would place a higher value on player skill.
Yep, everybody understands that. A different point of view is : Avoiding flashes,suppression and aimpunch is a skill,too. The better aim still wins 90%. Even under these effects. Top players and top teams still won because they just played better. Tone it down, im ok with that but its just not gamebreaking imo.
Make AA Great Again!
This is a waste of everyone’s time to bicker back and forth. Just ask real questions because supposively there is suppose to be some sort of transparency of workflow.
@aaHollywood
Does the Dev team have any intent on making any changes noted above before AAV is released.
Play the game if you like it, if not just wait and see how AAV will be.
The constant cycle of suggesting the same thing is not getting us anywhere but to the very beginning.
Over 2k Golden Hawkeyes.
Yeah, what he said, Just let the devs work for it, I think we're(Some of us) populist.
C O L D A R R A, _ B O R E A N _ T U N D R A
Make AA Great Again!
Small tweaks here and there that your average pubber would probably not even notice or care for would make a big difference. Some people here argue against lowering suppression/aim punch as if they wouldn't play the game if it were lowered.
The players left dont care what you give them at this point, they're gonna play regardless. But making changes for possible growth is just not worth it I guess.
#Support Comp Mode
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
Make AA Great Again!
Maybe not, but it will at least show the dev team that having excessive suppression, aim punch, etc. is detrimental to the game. The next America's Army game won't be out for three years unless they can somehow pull it off faster with a bigger team and it seems that, at least for a while, the Dev team will continue to develop AAPG. So if that's the case, then there's no reason why they can't fix up the issues with gameplay a bit.
I've started playing AAPG again on a custom map server, I have fun with it, but I strongly doubt I can maintain playing this game for another three years. Still, I'd like to be able to enjoy it for more than another month or two before getting bored of it again. If I had to play only official maps, I probably wouldn't have even reinstalled the game again. It's why I'd love a mapping contest, especially with the caveat that if the winning maps become popular and fit with the gameplay that they would be considered for inclusion in AA5.
Make AA Great Again!
They're making changed and new guns and features possibly anyway, including new map contests and skins. Is all that work gonna change the playing numbers? No... Am I gonna start playing again? No.
Make simple changes to what were saying and I just might.
Im not gonna sit here and say I can influence thousands of people to play AAPG again. But just possibly around 100 of the comp players that are on my steam list, which almost none of whom play the game anymore. Just maybe
#Support Comp Mode
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
I would imagine, and I could be completely wrong, that adjusting the frag grenade radius would be fairly straightforward. I'd like to see looking away from a flash add at least 100-150% to the distance compared to the 50% it adds now. Perhaps reducing the increased recoil with low HP could be easily accomplished.
Obviously things like changing the weapon sway to something predictable or altering suppression would be more work, but I still think it's worth the effort.
Thats the beauty of UE4 (or any modern game engine for that matter) is it allows the Developers to make a single code base that can be compiled for differnt enviroments with minimal issues ie. PC/Macintosh/Linux/Playstation/xBox and sometimes even Nintendo and Web Browser based operations.
Make AA Great Again!