One of the things that really defines a good map (IMO) is the atmosphere it has. That's a pretty subjective thing, but to me maps like harbor assault night or any of the classic AA2 ports bring a really cool atmosphere that make it a lot of fun. Any map with 'exercise' in its name that reflects that exercise mentality and is super over-lit and bright (for lack of a better term) kind of fails the test in my book. Maps lack character and personality.
Again, it's very subjective what defines 'good atmosphere' and weather it actually plays a part in the design of a good map. There are a host of other more mechanical and in depth elements that define a truly good map.
Oh that just popped something into my head.. perhaps they should give hospital a bit of grime.. why oh why have we not been begging them to dirty up that map that won a 5* award for cleanliness in czervernia. Where people are shooting guns at each other.
Oh and 'while composing'.. it came to me that it severely misses the chunk of concrete that was blown out of the plaza. (perhaps by RPG or Anti-Tank Missile, Mortar fire?)
If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.
I think everyone is in agreeance we need better maps. I mean the should throw the training maps in the garbage. Harbor assault is great, overload is great, hospital and bridge are great maps. throw away the rest make bigger and new maps
I haven't played enough Overload to really judge it. I think Harbor's one of the better maps in the game. Inner Hospital is probably the best map in the game. Full Hospital and Bridge, along with Redline, are probably the worst maps in the game.
Tbh there is no way that Hospital would play as it should without VIP, it was objective that defined the map. Redline seems meh but haven't played enough of it to say what's wrong with it, and Bridge is not that popular because changes made to it weren't necessary at all- gameplay around mid is just strange.
Mine too, it's more of a battle of brains.. than who can shoot the best/fastest, peeky shoot and pre-fire like a boss kinda maps
The kind of map that forces some kind of teamwork in a pub because of its diversity and expanse, yeah you get the construction/AC and Café campers but that's down to the diverstiy part
The other maps that you imply are less of a battle of a brains -- I completely disagree with your characterization, both of the smaller maps and of maps like Hospital. The BDX maps are very much a battle of knowing where the opponent is likely to move next. When a player approaches them as "best/fastest peeky shoot", they're not looking at the maps in a good way. That's a recipe for getting owned over and over again. "Why on earth would you peek that?" is a pretty common refrain in my TS: if your plan of attack is to out-aim the enemy that you know is watching your corner, figure out a better plan.
Consider the end game on Hospital. Assault has the flag, defenders have pulled back to extract, there's more than a minute on the clock. The attacker could go *anywhere he pleases* -- he can go through either spawn, or upper hospital, or lower hospital, or up to AC, or ... there are enough options that you can't hope to do much better than random guessing if there are fewer than 4 players on the map. Meanwhile, the assault player has no chance at searching everything; the best he can do is throw some smokes, choose an area or two to check, and hope he guesses right. The "smart play" options are limited.
Consider the end game on a map like Siege. A player can position to listen to one area and watch another while only leaving a third area uncovered instead of 3+ other possible routes. Two players can set up to cover one another far more effectively. There's much more room for consistency resulting from good decision-making and good game sense.
Depends how you like to play, lets look at inner, its the most popular so makes sense.. both assault or defence can lock down the main routes right off the bat, this leads to people camping the same spots round after round, peek shooting the common spots, always doing the same thing round after round. Near all combat happens in defined locations, makes the map too predictable and monotonous after a while. We have to both bear in mind and look through the eyes of new players eyes, do they want to join inner first time of playing? How long is that guy going to stick around when a 2 year veteran darkroom rusher blasts him round after round?
Big hospital breaks the repetitiveness of such a layout by allowing multiple ways to complete the objective, a slower paced environment for which to learn, you generally live longer by default.. you learn how to deal with bush campers, snipers, better overall players and its fun, that's why I said maps like Hospital force pubbers, no-mics.. newcomers to learn how to play effectively by "needing to work as a team" because of how the map itself plays.
I wasn't implying all other maps do the opposite, or lack use of brains.
Think of it like I'm looking at it like this.. I can and do get killed by new players on big hospital, because I have no clue where he may be and part of enjoying the game is having people to play the game with, if that means I have to die a few times on a big map, because it's not predictable or have a pre-dertermied outcome, or even because assault can get to the extract before I can myself, meaning I've already lost the round.... I'm more than happy to take them new player bullets or extract losses, even if lots of people seemingly can't.
If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.
a map as big as full hospital or redline needs to have a moving OBJ. by that i mean a VIP that starts getting intercepted/chased from the moment the round starts. else there's just so many places for people to fight each other and completely ignore the objective til the absolute last minute of the round... while the defense team has the upper hand by simply just forcing the assault team to clear the entire map before even picking up the "flag".
In all honestly Inner Hospital is not a truly great map. When you compare it to the other maps in the game its a favorite. I know I'm sick of joining a server and it gets voted to inner hospital.
Depends how you like to play, lets look at inner, its the most popular so makes sense.. both assault or defence can lock down the main routes right off the bat, this leads to people camping the same spots round after round, peek shooting the common spots, always doing the same thing round after round. Near all combat happens in defined locations, makes the map too predictable and monotonous after a while. We have to both bear in mind and look through the eyes of new players eyes, do they want to join inner first time of playing? How long is that guy going to stick around when a 2 year veteran darkroom rusher blasts him round after round?
Big hospital breaks the repetitiveness of such a layout by allowing multiple ways to complete the objective, a slower paced environment for which to learn, you generally live longer by default.. you learn how to deal with bush campers, snipers, better overall players and its fun, that's why I said maps like Hospital force pubbers, no-mics.. newcomers to learn how to play effectively by "needing to work as a team" because of how the map itself plays.
I wasn't implying all other maps do the opposite, or lack use of brains.
Think of it like I'm looking at it like this.. I can and do get killed by new players on big hospital, because I have no clue where he may be and part of enjoying the game is having people to play the game with, if that means I have to die a few times on a big map, because it's not predictable or have a pre-dertermied outcome, or even because assault can get to the extract before I can myself, meaning I've already lost the round.... I'm more than happy to take them new player bullets or extract losses, even if lots of people seemingly can't.
I agree that Inner can be monotonous, but that's got a lot to do with it being played 12v12 (and so frequently in general). There are too many people everywhere to make things happen. With 6v6, you can stack 3 players in one spot to make a push somewhere while still at least watching all your flanks.
That said, I disagree with your conclusion that this makes Inner a bad place to learn to play. I'm also not sure how new players got entered into this discussion, but let's run with it.
Inner is typically going to play out more quickly than a map like Red Line or Hospital, so the player down time is shorter and they can iterate on what they're trying to do more quickly. More attempts means more chances to try something different and learn.
"Big" maps have even more angles and required map knowledge that hurts the new player. On Inner, a player can quickly learn "rushing into west == death". That's a round one lesson: bullets hurt and this room gets noisy fast. What's he do round two? Sit back a bit and wait to see what happens. That's still a valuable position for his team and he's iterating on how to play that area in a very map-appropriate way. With Big Hospital, there's much less ability to predict what will happen. I can think of so many more potential "first contact" spots on that map that depend on who went where and what rushes are happening; a new player can't reasonably have any idea what to expect in any given area after just a few rounds. Responding with caution in many of those areas just means they're caught off-guard by a different opposition move. It's much harder to learn, there are more angles to worry about.
With the limited engagement options, new players can focus on a smaller set of skills -- they learn where to expect the enemy, too, and can focus on shooting skills and so on.
Predictability doesn't at all mean things are bad for new players. I'd argue that knowing where you got shot from is far less frustrating, and more educational, than getting killed from some random angle where you didn't even realize an enemy could be (and thus not knowing what happened or how you should've played differently).
I think everyone is in agreeance we need better maps. I mean the should throw the training maps in the garbage. Harbor assault is great, overload is great, hospital and bridge are great maps. throw away the rest make bigger and new maps
Yes, we have too much overpopulated training maps in AA:PG.
Mine too, it's more of a battle of brains.. than who can shoot the best/fastest, peeky shoot and pre-fire like a boss kinda maps
The kind of map that forces some kind of teamwork in a pub because of its diversity and expanse, yeah you get the construction/AC and Café campers but that's down to the diverstiy part
Absolutely and the last push to the helipad is often the most interesting part if the enemy snipers are still there. This map just claims a much more interesting team communication, especially because of the different groups outdoor and indoor in the different floors and wings.
Yes the maps could be better but don't be acting like the maps you enjoy are popular for everyone. Hospital and bridge are rarely played as much as the other maps and are a pretty boring experience. With either a way too complex layout with a bazillion hiding places or a giant choke point that relies on camping and aim so everyone rage quits as aim is not very popular here. Mostly only new players are on them when they haven't learnt the good or bad maps yet. But here if we were to listen to you guys anyone would think bridge is equal to inner hospital. I'm guessing it's that nostalgia kicking in again.
This thread is still just as stupid 6 pages in with people dribbling about old map remakes still like that's the only thing they can think of out the box. I think I have been the only one to actually pitch an idea with description and images for inspiration and oh look, it might get included in the game. I must have been trolling.
Nobody actually mentioned bridge in this thread except 1 person in a sarcastic way, but ok, can't pass a good opportunity to put a negative connotation on something AA2 right?
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Yes alot of people brought up AA2 maps but what is the title of this thread? "What type of map of would you like to see?"
People answer with names of AA2 maps, that means they want that type of map. It's not difficult to realise this.
What we need is a map production cycle. Just about anything will become monotonous and stale after a couple of months. I'd say it would take 8+ per year to keep content hungry consumers active in your game.
Depends how you like to play, lets look at inner, its the most popular so makes sense.. both assault or defence can lock down the main routes right off the bat, this leads to people camping the same spots round after round, peek shooting the common spots, always doing the same thing round after round. Near all combat happens in defined locations, makes the map too predictable and monotonous after a while. We have to both bear in mind and look through the eyes of new players eyes, do they want to join inner first time of playing? How long is that guy going to stick around when a 2 year veteran darkroom rusher blasts him round after round?
Big hospital breaks the repetitiveness of such a layout by allowing multiple ways to complete the objective, a slower paced environment for which to learn, you generally live longer by default.. you learn how to deal with bush campers, snipers, better overall players and its fun, that's why I said maps like Hospital force pubbers, no-mics.. newcomers to learn how to play effectively by "needing to work as a team" because of how the map itself plays.
I wasn't implying all other maps do the opposite, or lack use of brains.
Think of it like I'm looking at it like this.. I can and do get killed by new players on big hospital, because I have no clue where he may be and part of enjoying the game is having people to play the game with, if that means I have to die a few times on a big map, because it's not predictable or have a pre-dertermied outcome, or even because assault can get to the extract before I can myself, meaning I've already lost the round.... I'm more than happy to take them new player bullets or extract losses, even if lots of people seemingly can't.
I agree that Inner can be monotonous, but that's got a lot to do with it being played 12v12 (and so frequently in general). There are too many people everywhere to make things happen. With 6v6, you can stack 3 players in one spot to make a push somewhere while still at least watching all your flanks.
That said, I disagree with your conclusion that this makes Inner a bad place to learn to play. I'm also not sure how new players got entered into this discussion, but let's run with it.
Inner is typically going to play out more quickly than a map like Red Line or Hospital, so the player down time is shorter and they can iterate on what they're trying to do more quickly. More attempts means more chances to try something different and learn.
"Big" maps have even more angles and required map knowledge that hurts the new player. On Inner, a player can quickly learn "rushing into west == death". That's a round one lesson: bullets hurt and this room gets noisy fast. What's he do round two? Sit back a bit and wait to see what happens. That's still a valuable position for his team and he's iterating on how to play that area in a very map-appropriate way. With Big Hospital, there's much less ability to predict what will happen. I can think of so many more potential "first contact" spots on that map that depend on who went where and what rushes are happening; a new player can't reasonably have any idea what to expect in any given area after just a few rounds. Responding with caution in many of those areas just means they're caught off-guard by a different opposition move. It's much harder to learn, there are more angles to worry about.
With the limited engagement options, new players can focus on a smaller set of skills -- they learn where to expect the enemy, too, and can focus on shooting skills and so on.
Predictability doesn't at all mean things are bad for new players. I'd argue that knowing where you got shot from is far less frustrating, and more educational, than getting killed from some random angle where you didn't even realize an enemy could be (and thus not knowing what happened or how you should've played differently).
Sorry, new players got brought into what I was saying but it was because we will desperately need them and player retention has been talked about recently, getting closer to release we should be considering the game and it's effects in relation to the new players full release may bring, not just thinking about the boredom and skill level of people who have been here for over 2 years playing the same game and maps for 1000's of hours.
The only thing they are going to learn from Inner is how to die.. repeatedly. Yes they may learn how not to.. but are they going to be sticking around long enough to even want to learn?
I'm not entirely stupid, I know as soon as someone clicks on a server no matter what map it's on is going to learn people how to play, even Inner, there's no doubt it's the best map, but is it the best map because we have ploughed time into all the others and come to prefer it over time? our visions can be easily skewed since we have kept up with the game.. seen all the changes and played through them, all while playing the same maps.
I'm more worried how long will the player keep playing and wanting to learn in environments where 2 year vets do nothing but lock them down and show them the spectator view, every round? couple that frustration with a game with no respawn, where players may have to wait for their next bite of the cherry.. it's harder to achieve that awesome word 'immersion'.. the kind of feelings where you want to keep playing..when your dying 20 seconds into a round and waiting 3-4 minutes to get back in = lost players?
Basically, bigger maps will award more time to the new player, Hospital is a prime example, they will have more time to adjust and plan, time to learn without all the run and gun right from the round timer start. Ever wonder why people often compare the game to COD? it's not because of respawns or killtsreaks.. it's because of 2 year veterans kicking butt, who know all the nooks and crannies, all the spam spots and how to make the most of the map dynamics and common plays, with or without teamwork.
I'm not saying you are wrong in any of what your saying, I agree.. but I think were looking at it all through experienced eyes.
If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.
Sorry, new players got brought into what I was saying but it was because we will desperately need them and player retention has been talked about recently, getting closer to release we should be considering the game and it's effects in relation to the new players full release may bring, not just thinking about the boredom and skill level of people who have been here for over 2 years playing the same game and maps for 1000's of hours.
The only thing they are going to learn from Inner is how to die.. repeatedly. Yes they may learn how not to.. but are they going to be sticking around long enough to even want to learn?
I'm not entirely stupid, I know as soon as someone clicks on a server no matter what map it's on is going to learn people how to play, even Inner, there's no doubt it's the best map, but is it the best map because we have ploughed time into all the others and come to prefer it over time? our visions can be easily skewed since we have kept up with the game.. seen all the changes and played through them, all while playing the same maps.
I'm more worried how long will the player keep playing and wanting to learn in environments where 2 year vets do nothing but lock them down and show them the spectator view, every round? couple that frustration with a game with no respawn, where players may have to wait for their next bite of the cherry.. it's harder to achieve that awesome word 'immersion'.. the kind of feelings where you want to keep playing..when your dying 20 seconds into a round and waiting 3-4 minutes to get back in = lost players?
Basically, bigger maps will award more time to the new player, Hospital is a prime example, they will have more time to adjust and plan, time to learn without all the run and gun right from the round timer start. Ever wonder why people often compare the game to COD? it's not because of respawns or killtsreaks.. it's because of 2 year veterans kicking butt, who know all the nooks and crannies, all the spam spots and how to make the most of the map dynamics and common plays, with or without teamwork.
I'm not saying you are wrong in any of what your saying, I agree.. but I think were looking at it all through experienced eyes.
Very well put, we can't be 100% sure that we can predict/know how the game will look for new players simply because of how perception works, which is always mixed with your opinions that were made throughout the time.
What we need is a map production cycle. Just about anything will become monotonous and stale after a couple of months. I'd say it would take 8+ per year to keep content hungry consumers active in your game.
Good point. I think every quarter we should be getting 2 new maps. I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility for a professional map making team. If the map list gets too large, then you eventually start cutting the less popular maps.
Sorry, new players got brought into what I was saying but it was because we will desperately need them and player retention has been talked about recently, getting closer to release we should be considering the game and it's effects in relation to the new players full release may bring, not just thinking about the boredom and skill level of people who have been here for over 2 years playing the same game and maps for 1000's of hours.
The only thing they are going to learn from Inner is how to die.. repeatedly. Yes they may learn how not to.. but are they going to be sticking around long enough to even want to learn?
I'm not entirely stupid, I know as soon as someone clicks on a server no matter what map it's on is going to learn people how to play, even Inner, there's no doubt it's the best map, but is it the best map because we have ploughed time into all the others and come to prefer it over time? our visions can be easily skewed since we have kept up with the game.. seen all the changes and played through them, all while playing the same maps.
I'm more worried how long will the player keep playing and wanting to learn in environments where 2 year vets do nothing but lock them down and show them the spectator view, every round? couple that frustration with a game with no respawn, where players may have to wait for their next bite of the cherry.. it's harder to achieve that awesome word 'immersion'.. the kind of feelings where you want to keep playing..when your dying 20 seconds into a round and waiting 3-4 minutes to get back in = lost players?
Basically, bigger maps will award more time to the new player, Hospital is a prime example, they will have more time to adjust and plan, time to learn without all the run and gun right from the round timer start. Ever wonder why people often compare the game to COD? it's not because of respawns or killtsreaks.. it's because of 2 year veterans kicking butt, who know all the nooks and crannies, all the spam spots and how to make the most of the map dynamics and common plays, with or without teamwork.
I'm not saying you are wrong in any of what your saying, I agree.. but I think were looking at it all through experienced eyes.
The big issue I see coming up in your posts is putting new players against the top half a percent of the player pool. Look at the matchmaking design, the server organization design, the tutorial design, all of those other aspects if you want new players to do well.
Indeed, I also want them to do more than well.. I want them to stick around and hope for the possibility of them coming to join us 1% here in the forum and get involved themselves, there would be no better feedback for the devs than a new players perspective, currently most come and say it's a COD rip off or it's not AA2 because the maps we have are fast paced, basically it's them saying they are getting slaughtered before even getting to grips with the game, then are recklessly boo'd off the forum, telling them 'in as many words' to go back to COD where they belong rather than listening to their concerns (I've been guilty of it myself )
I think there's a need for tacti-cool, camper heaven, bigger maps with lots of random encounters and outcomes (e.g Hospital), as much as need for action packed, multi-choke, pre-determined.. small maps (e.g Inner), for the benefit of all players of any skill level to enjoy.. that's basically all I'm getting at.
I think we already thrashed over training/tutorial and matchmaking over the past few months, no doubt these things would be great too!
If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.
Comments
Again, it's very subjective what defines 'good atmosphere' and weather it actually plays a part in the design of a good map. There are a host of other more mechanical and in depth elements that define a truly good map.
Oh and 'while composing'.. it came to me that it severely misses the chunk of concrete that was blown out of the plaza. (perhaps by RPG or Anti-Tank Missile, Mortar fire?)
Tbh there is no way that Hospital would play as it should without VIP, it was objective that defined the map. Redline seems meh but haven't played enough of it to say what's wrong with it, and Bridge is not that popular because changes made to it weren't necessary at all- gameplay around mid is just strange.
Consider the end game on Hospital. Assault has the flag, defenders have pulled back to extract, there's more than a minute on the clock. The attacker could go *anywhere he pleases* -- he can go through either spawn, or upper hospital, or lower hospital, or up to AC, or ... there are enough options that you can't hope to do much better than random guessing if there are fewer than 4 players on the map. Meanwhile, the assault player has no chance at searching everything; the best he can do is throw some smokes, choose an area or two to check, and hope he guesses right. The "smart play" options are limited.
Consider the end game on a map like Siege. A player can position to listen to one area and watch another while only leaving a third area uncovered instead of 3+ other possible routes. Two players can set up to cover one another far more effectively. There's much more room for consistency resulting from good decision-making and good game sense.
Big hospital breaks the repetitiveness of such a layout by allowing multiple ways to complete the objective, a slower paced environment for which to learn, you generally live longer by default.. you learn how to deal with bush campers, snipers, better overall players and its fun, that's why I said maps like Hospital force pubbers, no-mics.. newcomers to learn how to play effectively by "needing to work as a team" because of how the map itself plays.
I wasn't implying all other maps do the opposite, or lack use of brains.
Think of it like I'm looking at it like this.. I can and do get killed by new players on big hospital, because I have no clue where he may be and part of enjoying the game is having people to play the game with, if that means I have to die a few times on a big map, because it's not predictable or have a pre-dertermied outcome, or even because assault can get to the extract before I can myself, meaning I've already lost the round.... I'm more than happy to take them new player bullets or extract losses, even if lots of people seemingly can't.
I agree that Inner can be monotonous, but that's got a lot to do with it being played 12v12 (and so frequently in general). There are too many people everywhere to make things happen. With 6v6, you can stack 3 players in one spot to make a push somewhere while still at least watching all your flanks.
That said, I disagree with your conclusion that this makes Inner a bad place to learn to play. I'm also not sure how new players got entered into this discussion, but let's run with it.
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Nobody actually mentioned bridge in this thread except 1 person in a sarcastic way, but ok, can't pass a good opportunity to put a negative connotation on something AA2 right?
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Yes alot of people brought up AA2 maps but what is the title of this thread? "What type of map of would you like to see?"
People answer with names of AA2 maps, that means they want that type of map. It's not difficult to realise this.
Sorry, new players got brought into what I was saying but it was because we will desperately need them and player retention has been talked about recently, getting closer to release we should be considering the game and it's effects in relation to the new players full release may bring, not just thinking about the boredom and skill level of people who have been here for over 2 years playing the same game and maps for 1000's of hours.
The only thing they are going to learn from Inner is how to die.. repeatedly. Yes they may learn how not to.. but are they going to be sticking around long enough to even want to learn?
I'm not entirely stupid, I know as soon as someone clicks on a server no matter what map it's on is going to learn people how to play, even Inner, there's no doubt it's the best map, but is it the best map because we have ploughed time into all the others and come to prefer it over time? our visions can be easily skewed since we have kept up with the game.. seen all the changes and played through them, all while playing the same maps.
I'm more worried how long will the player keep playing and wanting to learn in environments where 2 year vets do nothing but lock them down and show them the spectator view, every round? couple that frustration with a game with no respawn, where players may have to wait for their next bite of the cherry.. it's harder to achieve that awesome word 'immersion'.. the kind of feelings where you want to keep playing..when your dying 20 seconds into a round and waiting 3-4 minutes to get back in = lost players?
Basically, bigger maps will award more time to the new player, Hospital is a prime example, they will have more time to adjust and plan, time to learn without all the run and gun right from the round timer start. Ever wonder why people often compare the game to COD? it's not because of respawns or killtsreaks.. it's because of 2 year veterans kicking butt, who know all the nooks and crannies, all the spam spots and how to make the most of the map dynamics and common plays, with or without teamwork.
I'm not saying you are wrong in any of what your saying, I agree.. but I think were looking at it all through experienced eyes.
Very well put, we can't be 100% sure that we can predict/know how the game will look for new players simply because of how perception works, which is always mixed with your opinions that were made throughout the time.
Good point. I think every quarter we should be getting 2 new maps. I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility for a professional map making team. If the map list gets too large, then you eventually start cutting the less popular maps.
I think there's a need for tacti-cool, camper heaven, bigger maps with lots of random encounters and outcomes (e.g Hospital), as much as need for action packed, multi-choke, pre-determined.. small maps (e.g Inner), for the benefit of all players of any skill level to enjoy.. that's basically all I'm getting at.
I think we already thrashed over training/tutorial and matchmaking over the past few months, no doubt these things would be great too!