Make M16 Great Again

iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
edited December 2016 in General Discussion
Bring back the old shooting style. The m16 is RARELY used now and I feel like with the old system the shooting was quicker and more comparable to the m4 allowing players to actually use it. Now it's clunky, slow and rough to use. Therefore no one uses unless doing a challenge or using acog which is very little.

In comp the gun is just simply never used, you'll lose 99% of the battle.

or not, but it's just a suggestion.

Here is an example how good the m16 used to be versus m4. You can't do that anymore. go to 4:13 on the video

Make m16 great again
  1. M16 shooting styles?14 votes
    1. M16 old shooting style (long hold for full burst, short click for 1 bullet)
      57.14%
    2. M16 new and current shooting style(one tap for full burst and high recoil)
      42.86%
Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
«1

Comments

  • Twitchr.Carbon8Twitchr.Carbon8 Posts: 337Player
    Agree with Rokis, it may have been slightly nerfed before, but the netcode patch seriously broke the m16 from being used seriously.
  • Dct.F|LeventeDct.F|Levente Posts: 624Beta Tester
    edited December 2016
    Hmm... The old shooting style definitely made the weapon stronger. But still, the M16+Red dot+semi-auto is my go-to weapon most of the time nowadays. I know, I'm weird... I used it so much, that I felt like I almost need to re-learn the M4 - my recoil control was rusty (I did some practice in my last couple of gameplay hours, so now I'm feeling it again.)

    The reason for I like this combo:
    -It requires precision and discipline. You can't get away with spray-and-pray and if you really want to win you have to hit the head. This made me a better player in general (and the old burst style didn't make this possible).
    -It makes said precision possible, because it has very slightly less maximum recoil (based on numbers) and it has significantly less sway (based on the feeling of the gun).
    -You can spam the weapon in semi-auto as much as you want (well, 600 RPM max, but most players can't click that fast), you won't 'jam' the weapon like you would in burst mode if you mess up the delay. If you practice and have a good trigger finger you won't be too slow. I can fire it 500-550 RPM easily on my better days (I measured it on video footage). (Just no macros, please!) True, the old burst made this a whole lot easier.
    -Because you fire your bullets 1-by-1 you can time recoil control better as you don't need to adapt to a set RoF, you just have to pull down-left after clicking.
    -You don't run out of ammo. I can't remember when was the last time I used all my shots, but it happens regularly with the M4. I simply use less bullets to kill someone with the M16.
    -If you don't hit the head, it has better damage on some ranges.
    -For the reason mentioned above, the M16 is better on long range but the M4 out-damages it in CQB.

    I'm not saying that the M16 is better with the new burst - it was more powerful back then. I'm saying that it forced me to step out of my comfort zone and improve my aim.
    However, I completely understand why it's not used in comp. Most firefight happen up close, and you don't want an unforgiving weapon there. Plus the other benefits are not as important as in public games. If I had to pick a gun for a comp scenario, that would be the M4+red dot+full auto, no matter my opinion about the M16.
    Theory and reality are not that different. In theory.
  • ~Gorilla~~Gorilla~ Posts: 793Administrator
    I personally enjoy it where it is and its a different firearm, which means it will have a dif feel to the m4. I feel that the way this gun fires is more real. I have not ever had an issue with my shots with this gun nor do I find that it is slow or the recoil is to bad. Single fire for long and bust for close range. However maybe your reaction time is slow.
  • iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
    edited December 2016
    I should probably mention that I am much more comp inclined then pubbing, camping and trying slow play. I also do not see the m16 usage being high on either comp or pub. Usage was low then as well but now I don't see it period. Not meaning to bash any player, but players with comparable skills don't use the m16. You see more slower, pub inclined players use it, even then I can't do a direct comparison due to extreme skill gaps.

    EDIT: our guns also have restrictions to no acogs. I can do some game play with it, but I guarantee even with 5 hours I won't be able to time the m16 properly to compete with m4 in comp.
    Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
  • Dct.F|LeventeDct.F|Levente Posts: 624Beta Tester
    edited December 2016
    iNv|roKis- wrote: »
    I should probably mention that I am much more comp inclined then pubbing, camping and trying slow play. I also do not see the m16 usage being high on either comp or pub. Usage was low then as well but now I don't see it period. Not meaning to bash any player, but players with comparable skills don't use the m16. You see more slower, pub inclined players use it, even then I can't do a direct comparison due to extreme skill gaps.

    EDIT: our guns also have restrictions to no acogs. I can do some game play with it, but I guarantee even with 5 hours I won't be able to time the m16 properly to compete with m4 in comp.

    Well, I don't claim to be a comp-level player, but I think I'm above average. It's true, the M16 is more of a sit-back-and-support weapon rather than a push-up-into-the-enemy's-face kind of gun. But I wouldn't classify it as a camper weapon - I like to out-position my opponents instead of relying only on out-aiming them. (But let's not derail this topic with this.)

    Just asking, was the old M16 a true competitor for the M4 in comp? I mean it's mostly CQB, where you can't take as big of an advantage of it's better damage over range. On top of that it has slightly worse handling stats (slower ADS-in time and slower sprint-out time). Or did the sway reduction make it worth to use? Am I missing something?
    Theory and reality are not that different. In theory.
  • JungleSheepJungleSheep Posts: 87Player
    edited December 2016
    Ironically, I think the M16 will be more useful if the burst spread is bigger. I only use burst at close range and it will be more useful if the spread is bigger like a shotgun (but with the first shot on point) since the main weakness of the M16 is close range panic shooting. Also, remove all the damage reduction at range so that it is much more deadly at long range and makes it a better choice than the M4. At the moment, the damage reduction at range is not that significant vs M4.

  • iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
    edited December 2016
    As seen on the video I used the gun 100% of the time. Only one other player used it along with me and he also thinks the m16 was pretty good.

    The idea here in the end is to make the gun useful, because I really do not see it's usefulness. The gun actually has a higher damage from further distances, the gun offers incredible accuracy on a single burst. But, it is primarily used for long distances and as soon you CQB it loses it's usefulness. Due to AAPG being extremely fast game, to be just powerful from far isn't good enough it must be used for both. Hence why the change BACK to it's 1-2 shooting style, versus full burst with it's unintentional jamming mechanism if you're railing the left mouse button.

    Also to add, it takes time to be able to aim and burst at the same time, hence why many payers never opted for the m16 in comp, but rather stick to the m4 auto style. I just really loved that darn m16 back in open beta it was THE BEST weapon.
    Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Just asking, was the old M16 a true competitor for the M4 in comp?
    I'm not really playing now so can't comment on current stats, but it used to be for sure. Better recoil & sway stats meant more bullets on target for players that learned its pattern. I preferred M16, as did many others, but it was never the majority choice.
  • iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    Just asking, was the old M16 a true competitor for the M4 in comp?
    I'm not really playing now so can't comment on current stats, but it used to be for sure. Better recoil & sway stats meant more bullets on target for players that learned its pattern. I preferred M16, as did many others, but it was never the majority choice.

    Correct, despite it's HUGE advantages, it was never the option for most players, but it was a true competitor even CQB. The only thing is the shooting style that needs to change. It would come back to being a competitor I believe.
    Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    I used to prefer m16 for pub and m4 for comp, don't think you'll get a clear answer here. I'd also argue that the old m16 was a tad too strong if you knew how to abuse said mechanic. I agree that it's basically trash atm, m4 is just better. Another thing that adds to the clunkyness is accidentally hitting the fire button while performing another action e.g. sliding. It was changed a few months ago and your firing input gets queued up and will be performed after completing the slide. Not too big of a deal on the m4 as you only shoot a single bullet, waste of time on the m16. Avoidable you might say but with how clunky the rest of the game feels I had that one happen too often and it can get you killed quite easily.
  • [Prt_Dictator][Prt_Dictator] Posts: 275Player
    The fire mode is not the only thing that changed from the beta, from the video, to release.
    The recoil is more random and there is aimpunch.

    The aimpunch alone makes the m16 worse because timing the clicks, controlling the burst recoil while compensating for random flinching requires much more effort than just pressing down the button and moving the mouse as needed.
    As we see in a few moments from the video, on high levels, you can't expect to win every fight cleanly and in those moments the m16 much much harder to use, to the point of not being worth the effort.
    That's why this game is all about spraying & praying.

    It doesn't hurt to try but I would be surprised if reverting the fire mode was enough to change the popularity of the gun in the comp setting.
  • Hc|Captain(HUN)Hc|Captain(HUN) Posts: 113Player
    Hi.
    nice topic.
    I personally do always play with the M16 since the closed beta. the M16 was really strong when it has the acog with automatic fire. I loved it but also nowdays I do use it in public but also in comp matches if we play. I do not feel if I play with it I have a lower chanche to win, In mid range and high range battles its so accurate, 1 or two shoots and its a headshot. In close combat you its also effective you can shoot ffast and accurate. So my personal experience says M16 is good how it is now no need to make it stronger again.




    Hc|Captain(HUN) -
  • Hc|Captain(HUN)Hc|Captain(HUN) Posts: 113Player
    and I forgot. only single shots of course. with burst mode you have no control at all.




    Hc|Captain(HUN) -
  • iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
    Hi.
    nice topic.
    I personally do always play with the M16 since the closed beta. the M16 was really strong when it has the acog with automatic fire. I loved it but also nowdays I do use it in public but also in comp matches if we play. I do not feel if I play with it I have a lower chanche to win, In mid range and high range battles its so accurate, 1 or two shoots and its a headshot. In close combat you its also effective you can shoot ffast and accurate. So my personal experience says M16 is good how it is now no need to make it stronger again.

    AFAIK it was never auto. I played with it yesterday, it's not a gun comparable with m4 by miles. As I said before Mid to long range, this situation just isn't common enough. The maps are extremely small, the m4 does the same job for all 3 ranges, the m16 simply doesn't. Also m68 and ironsights > acog any day.
    Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
  • ~Gorilla~~Gorilla~ Posts: 793Administrator
    I do not see this gun having an issue and from maybe what you see on player not using the gun I see a bunch of players that do. Maybe not in comp but I do not see why the game should be bent for comp players getting the advantage like being able to shoot threw the corner of a wall on span because players calculate rather then confront and show real skill. I love the gun how it is to be honest. But if this one is changed what is next? Saw?
  • iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
    edited December 2016
    I do not see this gun having an issue and from maybe what you see on player not using the gun I see a bunch of players that do. Maybe not in comp but I do not see why the game should be bent for comp players getting the advantage like being able to shoot threw the corner of a wall on span because players calculate rather then confront and show real skill. I love the gun how it is to be honest. But if this one is changed what is next? Saw?


    Skill is not based on western style face to face, skill is a combination of your senses. Game sense, sound, visual, prediction, being able to use the physics and mechanics of the game to your advantage, not to limit your self. ie. not jumping around corners. Your server for example calls jumping around corners bunny hopping, and is a bannable offense. Despite bhopping meaning a whole different thing. Either way face to face it would take very little to modify how i would beat the other player because i have other senses i can work from, and someone would find a new way to complain such as spamming walls.
    Spamming the wall is a form of suppression, as well as to give me sound cues. I shoot and you move, I know exactly where you are, and from there on I have location on you, you lick your fingers and ill know.

    ex: I spam breach wall to boiler so I can move towards flag without you entering that room. Giving me the advantage and you the disadvantage.

    I can go on all day. Your opinion on skill is like people trying to limit others from improving their game play. You're limiting the players of all the games mechanics. Sort of how people used to complain about crouch shooting in aa2, yet it never stopped 90% of the community of doing. We simply just didn't play on those servers that limited, because it's ridiculous.

    moving on..

    We are trying to make the m16 useful and comparable to the m4. This is not bending the game around comp players. You see, we got a game, the game has different weapons, players do not use other weapons because the m4 is just simpler to use. Click point shoot and pull down. Spam all you want.

    M16 you can sit a mile away with an acog and that would be accurate, but red point and ironsight, no so much and due to the game requiring you to ADS, being able to ads close range and have the same comparable level to the m4 would be better.

    Each weapon should have it's strong point to give us a reason to use it. The AR is extremely powerful for suppression, large ammo belt, and deadly, however it's slow on reload and sighting.

    The m4 is accurate, full auto and fast for sighting. It's really an all around weapon.

    m16 is fast on sight, slow on shooting, higher recoil (at least imo) and it takes a lot of clicking to shoot at a high rate. Literally, just having the burst format back to the old style would make the gun faster on shooting without a macro. There are people here who swore i used macro for m16, that's how quick the gun used to shoot then. The burst was deadly as it had less recoil and you could make a kill on single burst due to not having a high RNG but only a recoil pattern.

    The saw has been changed and it's perfect now. It's a weapon that requires some skill to shoot, high recoil depending on CEM, accurate af if used right and does not have the RNG and side sway the m4 carries.

    I would accept the m16 as is as long we had the firing style changed, just to see how it would play out.

    Run numbers for me on your server, and tell me how many of the 24 players are using m16 that are not the ACOG slot.

    The game is actually catered for the pubber, so much the entire comp beta team was fired. So don't gimme that crap about bending for comp players. The game is stagnant. We are the only ones trying to change, by aligning to other games. Look at Doba's efforts at other topics and at the AAPG comp mod.

    CSGO the m4a1s has little spread, slower fire rate. the M4A1 higher fire rate higher spread.
    AK single bullet to the head is a kill. It gives verity. AUG scope. Scout: run shoot, jump shoot. AWP single shot kill, very accurate. GALIL, accurate-ish and cheap.

    We don't have a money system so for us it's super hard to comare bu we just use the m4. M4 for everything because it's just the best all around. Give the m16 an edge and people will use it and to me is it's accuracy of a burst and shooting style to improve firing.

    /rant

    lol.. long post. i had a lot of time.
    Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
  • iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
    Actually wondering if we can change with AAPG MOD.
    Doba?

    also @TheTots any input?
    Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
  • ChucklefaceChuckleface Posts: 25Player
    edited December 2016
    On the other hand... I think the M16 is being phased out. (Army in real life, kids.) Correct me if I'm wrong.

    So why not just take it out of the game completely?

    Rifleman gets the M4 and M870
    Automatic rifleman gets the M249
    DMR gets the M14
    Sniper gets the M24 (what do y'all think about adding the M110? To much? Probably, just stick with the M24.)
  • iNv|roKis-iNv|roKis- Posts: 420Player
    Two examples that could've been won with an m4 at least in my opinion.




    ____________________________



    Bhop is a string of jumps with no interruptions.
  • ~Gorilla~~Gorilla~ Posts: 793Administrator
    Yeah I still think its good as it is but no matter what its up to the Devs on what they think about it. I am afraid you may of mistaken what I meant about skills but I don't care at this point. Enjoy and good luck.
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