No, players with a high ping will not cause any gameplay issues to other players. In fact it ruins their own gameplay unless that said player always plays with that kind of ping and is used to it.
Yes, if there is a big difference in ping you may find it hard to shoot someone because they may not be exactly where you see him when you open fire. Also the netcode in this game isn't perfect, so if you have a full server specially on those with 10 spectator slots it might be possible that a player with 500+ ping causes - lagg spikes - to other players on the server.
I personally think we need to agree and raise the bar of ping kicks to 300 instead of 150.
So,you say high pingers will not give me gameplay issues but they will be harder to shoot...!? For me,in a SHOOTING game,it is a huge issue .
Yes, if there is a big difference in ping you may find it hard to shoot someone because they may not be exactly where you see him when you open fire.
Hit detection happens on the client for the developer-preferred CSHD setting. Wherever your client thinks the enemy is is where you have to shoot. Remember, there is bullet travel time and drop; this is most noticeable at longer distances. Enemy ping has, by design, ZERO impact on whether your hits will register.
SSHD is also very similar in that it attempts to model client-side detection by predicting where your client thought the enemy was when you shot. This is also designed to prevent ping from affecting your shots. However, it's not as reliable and not recommended by the AAPG dev team.
Maths and any actualities aside.. Having a high ping actually feels like its affecting yourself far more than it does the low pings.. character movements are generally slow to respond, for example a simple crouch would feel groggy and not nearly as responsive as it would if you were low pinging.. you will notice that when you press the key to crouch, it takes longer than usual for the character to actually do it.. like there is a slight delay
So for me, a low ping player that's going up against someone who is having a hard time controlling their character fluidly kinda seems to me.. from common sense.. that the advantage is leaned toward the low pinger.
I've played in Australian servers and had a blast with my groggy, slow to react soldier.. but for the most part I do tend to choose closer servers as it just feels a lot smoother to play the game.
If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.
There's no need to spread misinformation in a thread like this. Does ping affect gameplay when it reaches the 250+ point? Absolutely. Saying that it doesn't is not factual. While I am glad the devs put in the work to address the issue and raise that reasonable ping bar a bit higher it shouldn't be taken as the ultimate solution. Unless they've somehow figured out a way to bypass the way networking runs there will always be an issue with expecting clients with 250+ ping to perform the same as a client with 50 ping, regardless of what type of lag compensation is used. High ping also doesn't give a player superpowers, their hit-detection is also affected which means you both get to play "shoot the shadow".
There doesn't need to be a war waged over it though.... As Tots said, you have multiple options if you want to play on a NA server from outside the continent: 1. Find a server with a high limit 2. Get your own server and crank that limit up to 600 if you want or 3. Find a server closer to your physical location.
I just get irritated when discussions about the game turn into discussions about how individual players are going to start telling clans how to run their servers: With all due respect to those players as well as the devs, I think a move like that would be met with serious backlash.
Does ping affect gameplay when it reaches the 250+ point? Absolutely. Saying that it doesn't is not factual.
Back up your statement with those facts, please.
The ONLY 'facts' I've seen are apparent refutation by people generally considered to be experts. I have yet to see any factual proof that ping has a direct correlation to hit reg or gameplay issues.
Now I'm more than happy to have someone PROVE it true, but I've done too much tech work in various fields over the years to accept "it seems like it so it must be true."
No offense.
______
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
High ping also doesn't give a player superpowers, their hit-detection is also affected which means you both get to play "shoot the shadow".
That's incorrect. CSHD means never play "shoot the shadow". It doesn't work that way by design. [Dev]Grubber explained that at length in the past; the game is designed so that you don't have to adjust how you play or aim based on anyone's pings.
You're not challenging my word on this, you're challenging the words of all the people with degrees in this stuff who do this for a living.
Does ping affect gameplay when it reaches the 250+ point? Absolutely. Saying that it doesn't is not factual.
Back up your statement with those facts, please.
The ONLY 'facts' I've seen are apparent refutation by people generally considered to be experts. I have yet to see any factual proof that ping has a direct correlation to hit reg or gameplay issues.
Now I'm more than happy to have someone PROVE it true, but I've done too much tech work in various fields over the years to accept "it seems like it so it must be true."
No offense.
I'm not making any statements specifically pertaining to AAPG in that respect. The devs did a great job in implementing their system for lag compensation but anyone who has any experience with networking and/or programming knows you can't claim a PERFECT lag compensation system exists because it CAN'T exist. While lag comp does use the information to determine if the player you just shot at should be hit by (forgive me for my over-simplification here) more or less reviewing the data and saying "Yeah, you saw them on your screen and hit them", it does have and always will be restrained by the fact that a 250+ latency is 1/4 of a second. The point I am making is this: Does lag compensation work? Yes, it lessens the effect that high latency has on hit registration. Does lag compensation eliminate the effects of high latency? No, and a reasonable person would never expect it to. If you won't take the experience of many players reporting the freeze-up and inherent shortcomings of lag compensation when it is in effect as a sign that ping is relevant in gameplay then perhaps the devs will be kind enough to provide us with a sample data dump showing both high-ping vs low-ping hit registration as well as high-high and low-low. Once again, and this is important, lag compensation does a good job of leveling out the hit registration in regards to latency, but it does not make players ping irrelevant.
High ping also doesn't give a player superpowers, their hit-detection is also affected which means you both get to play "shoot the shadow".
That's incorrect. CSHD means never play "shoot the shadow". It doesn't work that way by design. [Dev]Grubber explained that at length in the past; the game is designed so that you don't have to adjust how you play or aim based on anyone's pings.
You're not challenging my word on this, you're challenging the words of all the people with degrees in this stuff who do this for a living.
As a fellow person with a degree that does similar things for a living I have no problem with challenging anyone's word on this. I'd be more than interested in hearing what the dev's have to say about the limitations of CSHD. I'll repeat once again so it is made perfectly clear that I am not trying to shed a bad light on the implementation of hit detection in AA:PG, I'm simply pointing out the fact that EVERY hit-detection system has an upper-limit in regards to latency at which point the gameplay is affected, however slightly that might be.
Based on your interpretation of (Dev)Grubber's words, I would assume that a player with 50 ping would see the exact same hit-reg results when shooting at a player with 150 ping, 250 ping, or 500 ping, which is not the case because it isn't a possibility. CSHD does bring the results closer together but it DOES NOT and CANNOT provide unilateral hit-reg results. It does TRY but not without some effect on gameplay (whether it's the small stutter that takes place before the kill feed progresses or the player death animation takes place, the absence of wall-hits where a players head was a moment ago while you were shooting at it, deaths that take place several seconds after a player model is no longer in sight of an attacker, etc).
As someone who plays primarily on a server that frequently has 20/24 players with 250+ ping I can tell you with certainty that ping does affect gameplay sometimes regardless of what hit-reg scheme you use.
I always have downloads running to get my ping higher because it's so easy to own noobs like that. Hiding the ping was the best thing devs did, never got caught doing that.
No, players with a high ping will not cause any gameplay issues to other players. In fact it ruins their own gameplay unless that said player always plays with that kind of ping and is used to it.
Yes, if there is a big difference in ping you may find it hard to shoot someone because they may not be exactly where you see him when you open fire. Also the netcode in this game isn't perfect, so if you have a full server specially on those with 10 spectator slots it might be possible that a player with 500+ ping causes - lagg spikes - to other players on the server.
I personally think we need to agree and raise the bar of ping kicks to 300 instead of 150.
Your Yes seems to contradict your No! LMAO
You said No (players with a high ping will not cause any gameplay issues to other players)
Then you said, Yes (if there is a big difference in ping you may find it hard to shoot someone because they may not be exactly where you see him when you open fire)
So the fact is, from even your point of view, that the higher ping actually does cause gameplay issues if in fact your yes is correct, in which it is!!!!
If I am shooting at someone that is no longer there, I say that is truly gameplay issues to me!!
Yes, server owners have the right to set there own rules witch may include ping. Starting a server of your own or using the Host A Server tool should be helpful to you.
I'm simply pointing out the fact that EVERY hit-detection system has an upper-limit in regards to latency at which point the gameplay is affected, however slightly that might be.
CSHD is client-side is client-side is client-side. Yeah, there's probably a point at which the server will start rejecting shots from the high-ping player, but the low-ping players will be able to hit them just fine.
This has been discussed to death many times in the past. The Devs have said as much in the past.
As someone who plays primarily on a server that frequently has 20/24 players with 250+ ping I can tell you with certainty that ping does affect gameplay sometimes regardless of what hit-reg scheme you use.
The -=312th=- server, at least when I used to play on it, was hosted in Dallas. Routing around Dallas was notorious for packet loss at the time; I never let my team play matches out of Dallas for that reason. I always had <90 ping, but frequent intermittent losses ~1-3 hops from the server (ran lots of MTRs).
When you say
deaths that take place several seconds after a player model is no longer in sight
ping is no longer the issue. It doesn't take several seconds for the player's 125ms one-way travel time to occur and the server doesn't need to get a response from that player to report they're dead. That's either a bug or network congestion around the host, not a result of 250ms ping. There's a big difference there.
I'm simply pointing out the fact that EVERY hit-detection system has an upper-limit in regards to latency at which point the gameplay is affected, however slightly that might be.
CSHD is client-side is client-side is client-side. Yeah, there's probably a point at which the server will start rejecting shots from the high-ping player, but the low-ping players will be able to hit them just fine.
Hmmm.... so what you want me to believe is that if I'm on a server with CSHD and I am shooting at someone with 280 ping my client and their client bypasses the server and create a P2P connection to negotiate hit-reg? Unless that's the case you can't discount the fact that the server still has to route the information between the clients, meaning latency still plays a part.
ping is no longer the issue. It doesn't take several seconds for the player's 125ms one-way travel time to occur and the server doesn't need to get a response from that player to report they're dead. That's either a bug or network congestion around the host, not a result of 250ms ping. There's a big difference there.
I like the theory, however, you would see other indications of network congestion such as warping or getting stuck on walls a lot sooner than you will see delayed hit-reg reporting. If it's a bug, it is one that is happening primarily with 250+ ping players so Dev's you know what to do: Fix the bug and move one step closer to making ping irrelevant. I want to play on some Brazilian servers with my 340 ping and see no difference between that and my home server! Thank God for CSHD making that possible regardless of how much it looks like other players are warping around!
Hmmm.... so what you want me to believe is that if I'm on a server with CSHD and I am shooting at someone with 280 ping my client and their client bypasses the server and create a P2P connection to negotiate hit-reg? Unless that's the case you can't discount the fact that the server still has to route the information between the clients, meaning latency still plays a part.
Nope. Your client never speaks directly to any other client, only the server. That's why their ping doesn't matter one bit. The server sends you a game state. You shoot at your local view of the game state. Your client decides if you hit anything. You send the update to the server. The server says "yeah, seems reasonable" and lets the other player know they were hit. At no point does their ping matter to your client.
I like the theory, however, you would see other indications of network congestion such as warping or getting stuck on walls a lot sooner than you will see delayed hit-reg reporting.
Nope, not necessarily. Congestion isn't symmetric and issues can be intermittent. You may be receiving game state updates just fine from the server without properly sending any yourself. The server and client are both very good at modeling the game world's natural progression when updates are missed and smoothly bringing the two views back into sync. Only situations that require 2-way communication for confirmation (throwing grenades, enemy kill confirmation, breaking glass, etc) immediately make issues apparent. Movement, for example, has a fair amount of leeway built in for letting the client and server states drift apart.
If it's a bug, it is one that is happening primarily with 250+ ping players so Dev's you know what to do: Fix the bug and move one step closer to making ping irrelevant. I want to play on some Brazilian servers with my 340 ping and see no difference between that and my home server! Thank God for CSHD making that possible regardless of how much it looks like other players are warping around!
Never suggested high ping meant gameplay was smooth for the high-ping client, just that low-ping players don't have to adjust how they aim/shoot/play based on others' pings. The high-ping player will experience hangs and rubberbanding when the server issues corrections to their position based on what the server told other clients about their position. That's part of the system for the server reconciling the 24 different views of the game state.
That theory was debunked years ago. High ping is just an annoyance bared only on the inflicted, unfortunately its also used as an excuse for the uninfluenced.. a perfect place to put blame. Not unlike hackusations. It's like you shoot an admin and he's straight on the console checking your ping.
@ 300+ I could understand the frustrations, how or why anyone would want to play with warping and unresponsiveness on that sort of level is not only laughable, it's stupid.. but limiting to 150? cmon guys.. even 200 I've found to be plenty playable, even though it might not be that fluid feeling of being 20-50. I know people have freedom to choose what happens on their own 'paid for' server and absolutely should have that freedom to a degree, but not to the degree of actual being harmful to the game.. no my friends that's taking the idea of you pay, then you make the rules to the point of being something that's actually damaging the game. That shouldn't be allowed, pay or no pay.
I have a problem with rules that don't make sense, sorry but it's something that just eats at me.. and has on many occasions affected me.. we all have opinions and this is mine.
I mean when you have silly things like one person who is supposedly wrecking a server (for whatever reasons you guys who set such limits) being kicked out of a server at 152 ping. Yep.. 'ONE PERSON' with a ping that's literally 2 digits over that limit? who was top of the leaderboard on points and had been playing for over an hour, before some dude came on the server to then abruptly ruin that 'ONE PERSONS' fun? the fun that, that person who had been playing there for a long time, multiple times and usually has a ping between 120-150? sorry.. but that's taking the micky and is wrong, there is no excuse for it.
I swear, sometimes I think that the game never had a chance to grow with these kinds of strict rules, mindsets and reckless actions. If were not allowed to say anything because of the whole you pay you choice.. then how could anything get better? we who are and have been affected are just supposed to suffer in silence? sit idly by while it goes on not only to ourselves, but to others? well.. not me I'm afraid.
If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.
its rather funny that a someone who pays for their server should allow you to play with high ping but you don't go buy another computer and start your own server? instead come and complain about them in the forums? everyone who plays this game knows that it plays better with everyone having a low ping than with mixed high and low.....
Comments
So,you say high pingers will not give me gameplay issues but they will be harder to shoot...!? For me,in a SHOOTING game,it is a huge issue .
Hit detection happens on the client for the developer-preferred CSHD setting. Wherever your client thinks the enemy is is where you have to shoot. Remember, there is bullet travel time and drop; this is most noticeable at longer distances. Enemy ping has, by design, ZERO impact on whether your hits will register.
SSHD is also very similar in that it attempts to model client-side detection by predicting where your client thought the enemy was when you shot. This is also designed to prevent ping from affecting your shots. However, it's not as reliable and not recommended by the AAPG dev team.
So for me, a low ping player that's going up against someone who is having a hard time controlling their character fluidly kinda seems to me.. from common sense.. that the advantage is leaned toward the low pinger.
I've played in Australian servers and had a blast with my groggy, slow to react soldier.. but for the most part I do tend to choose closer servers as it just feels a lot smoother to play the game.
There doesn't need to be a war waged over it though.... As Tots said, you have multiple options if you want to play on a NA server from outside the continent: 1. Find a server with a high limit 2. Get your own server and crank that limit up to 600 if you want or 3. Find a server closer to your physical location.
I just get irritated when discussions about the game turn into discussions about how individual players are going to start telling clans how to run their servers: With all due respect to those players as well as the devs, I think a move like that would be met with serious backlash.
Back up your statement with those facts, please.
The ONLY 'facts' I've seen are apparent refutation by people generally considered to be experts. I have yet to see any factual proof that ping has a direct correlation to hit reg or gameplay issues.
Now I'm more than happy to have someone PROVE it true, but I've done too much tech work in various fields over the years to accept "it seems like it so it must be true."
No offense.
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
That's incorrect. CSHD means never play "shoot the shadow". It doesn't work that way by design. [Dev]Grubber explained that at length in the past; the game is designed so that you don't have to adjust how you play or aim based on anyone's pings.
You're not challenging my word on this, you're challenging the words of all the people with degrees in this stuff who do this for a living.
I'm not making any statements specifically pertaining to AAPG in that respect. The devs did a great job in implementing their system for lag compensation but anyone who has any experience with networking and/or programming knows you can't claim a PERFECT lag compensation system exists because it CAN'T exist. While lag comp does use the information to determine if the player you just shot at should be hit by (forgive me for my over-simplification here) more or less reviewing the data and saying "Yeah, you saw them on your screen and hit them", it does have and always will be restrained by the fact that a 250+ latency is 1/4 of a second. The point I am making is this: Does lag compensation work? Yes, it lessens the effect that high latency has on hit registration. Does lag compensation eliminate the effects of high latency? No, and a reasonable person would never expect it to. If you won't take the experience of many players reporting the freeze-up and inherent shortcomings of lag compensation when it is in effect as a sign that ping is relevant in gameplay then perhaps the devs will be kind enough to provide us with a sample data dump showing both high-ping vs low-ping hit registration as well as high-high and low-low. Once again, and this is important, lag compensation does a good job of leveling out the hit registration in regards to latency, but it does not make players ping irrelevant.
As a fellow person with a degree that does similar things for a living I have no problem with challenging anyone's word on this. I'd be more than interested in hearing what the dev's have to say about the limitations of CSHD. I'll repeat once again so it is made perfectly clear that I am not trying to shed a bad light on the implementation of hit detection in AA:PG, I'm simply pointing out the fact that EVERY hit-detection system has an upper-limit in regards to latency at which point the gameplay is affected, however slightly that might be.
Based on your interpretation of (Dev)Grubber's words, I would assume that a player with 50 ping would see the exact same hit-reg results when shooting at a player with 150 ping, 250 ping, or 500 ping, which is not the case because it isn't a possibility. CSHD does bring the results closer together but it DOES NOT and CANNOT provide unilateral hit-reg results. It does TRY but not without some effect on gameplay (whether it's the small stutter that takes place before the kill feed progresses or the player death animation takes place, the absence of wall-hits where a players head was a moment ago while you were shooting at it, deaths that take place several seconds after a player model is no longer in sight of an attacker, etc).
As someone who plays primarily on a server that frequently has 20/24 players with 250+ ping I can tell you with certainty that ping does affect gameplay sometimes regardless of what hit-reg scheme you use.
I love this community!
Your Yes seems to contradict your No! LMAO
You said No (players with a high ping will not cause any gameplay issues to other players)
Then you said, Yes (if there is a big difference in ping you may find it hard to shoot someone because they may not be exactly where you see him when you open fire)
So the fact is, from even your point of view, that the higher ping actually does cause gameplay issues if in fact your yes is correct, in which it is!!!!
If I am shooting at someone that is no longer there, I say that is truly gameplay issues to me!!
CSHD is client-side is client-side is client-side. Yeah, there's probably a point at which the server will start rejecting shots from the high-ping player, but the low-ping players will be able to hit them just fine.
This has been discussed to death many times in the past. The Devs have said as much in the past.
The -=312th=- server, at least when I used to play on it, was hosted in Dallas. Routing around Dallas was notorious for packet loss at the time; I never let my team play matches out of Dallas for that reason. I always had <90 ping, but frequent intermittent losses ~1-3 hops from the server (ran lots of MTRs).
When you say ping is no longer the issue. It doesn't take several seconds for the player's 125ms one-way travel time to occur and the server doesn't need to get a response from that player to report they're dead. That's either a bug or network congestion around the host, not a result of 250ms ping. There's a big difference there.
Hmmm.... so what you want me to believe is that if I'm on a server with CSHD and I am shooting at someone with 280 ping my client and their client bypasses the server and create a P2P connection to negotiate hit-reg? Unless that's the case you can't discount the fact that the server still has to route the information between the clients, meaning latency still plays a part.
I like the theory, however, you would see other indications of network congestion such as warping or getting stuck on walls a lot sooner than you will see delayed hit-reg reporting. If it's a bug, it is one that is happening primarily with 250+ ping players so Dev's you know what to do: Fix the bug and move one step closer to making ping irrelevant. I want to play on some Brazilian servers with my 340 ping and see no difference between that and my home server! Thank God for CSHD making that possible regardless of how much it looks like other players are warping around!
max ping of 150 is the best.
Slam me with, "There ya go. There's yer proof!"
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
Nope, not necessarily. Congestion isn't symmetric and issues can be intermittent. You may be receiving game state updates just fine from the server without properly sending any yourself. The server and client are both very good at modeling the game world's natural progression when updates are missed and smoothly bringing the two views back into sync. Only situations that require 2-way communication for confirmation (throwing grenades, enemy kill confirmation, breaking glass, etc) immediately make issues apparent. Movement, for example, has a fair amount of leeway built in for letting the client and server states drift apart.
Never suggested high ping meant gameplay was smooth for the high-ping client, just that low-ping players don't have to adjust how they aim/shoot/play based on others' pings. The high-ping player will experience hangs and rubberbanding when the server issues corrections to their position based on what the server told other clients about their position. That's part of the system for the server reconciling the 24 different views of the game state.
That theory was debunked years ago. High ping is just an annoyance bared only on the inflicted, unfortunately its also used as an excuse for the uninfluenced.. a perfect place to put blame. Not unlike hackusations. It's like you shoot an admin and he's straight on the console checking your ping.
@ 300+ I could understand the frustrations, how or why anyone would want to play with warping and unresponsiveness on that sort of level is not only laughable, it's stupid.. but limiting to 150? cmon guys.. even 200 I've found to be plenty playable, even though it might not be that fluid feeling of being 20-50. I know people have freedom to choose what happens on their own 'paid for' server and absolutely should have that freedom to a degree, but not to the degree of actual being harmful to the game.. no my friends that's taking the idea of you pay, then you make the rules to the point of being something that's actually damaging the game. That shouldn't be allowed, pay or no pay.
I have a problem with rules that don't make sense, sorry but it's something that just eats at me.. and has on many occasions affected me.. we all have opinions and this is mine.
I mean when you have silly things like one person who is supposedly wrecking a server (for whatever reasons you guys who set such limits) being kicked out of a server at 152 ping. Yep.. 'ONE PERSON' with a ping that's literally 2 digits over that limit? who was top of the leaderboard on points and had been playing for over an hour, before some dude came on the server to then abruptly ruin that 'ONE PERSONS' fun? the fun that, that person who had been playing there for a long time, multiple times and usually has a ping between 120-150? sorry.. but that's taking the micky and is wrong, there is no excuse for it.
I swear, sometimes I think that the game never had a chance to grow with these kinds of strict rules, mindsets and reckless actions. If were not allowed to say anything because of the whole you pay you choice.. then how could anything get better? we who are and have been affected are just supposed to suffer in silence? sit idly by while it goes on not only to ourselves, but to others? well.. not me I'm afraid.
LETS GO PENS
: wave :
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
HooaH