MAP FEEDBACK: Downtown and Shadow Step

[Dev]Rawrster[Dev]Rawrster Posts: 329Developer
We made some changes to bakery window. Players using that window should now be a bit more visible and a bit more exposed. What are your thoughts on the changes?
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Comments

  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 645Player
    I think it was fine the way it was and the change should be reverted.
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited May 2015
    the bakery window box change: currently makes that position useless. at the very least, the box should be extended left and right of window so you can safely get on the box without exposing yourself to death during the climb animation. you should be able to strafe left or right for cover instead of jumping off the box. right now if you jump off the box for cover you then have to climb back on the box which will get you killed.


  • omerta`jeeomerta`jee Posts: 54Player
    The way it is, it is too dangerous to ever use that spot. I would suggest the following change. It is extremely deadly to climb up on the box and expose your whole body for the time of the climb. If you added a long table or boxes on either side, it would allow you to be a little safer to get into position, and then if you want to peak, you will be exposed. So you can climb on the edge box and strafe into view.

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  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited May 2015
    honestly, how about just removing the box, and gutting the window so we can still peek from more angles? right now it is so easy for outsiders to know exactly where your head will be when you expose it. that's because the box is so small and you can't use the floor behind it which would cause your head to be slightly different location when exposed. maybe if the entire 2nd floor was elevated to where that box height is... you know what i mean?
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    but as i said, instead of altering the box, just remove it and lower the window?


  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    It seems like this is what they did to stop people from supporting on the window...Why not rework supporting and disable the ability to support on certain windows?
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  • [Dev]Rawrster[Dev]Rawrster Posts: 329Developer
    This actually isn't an attempt to stop people from supporting on the window. When people support up on the window they are right at the edge of the window, more easily visible and more vulnerable.

    This is more an attempt to combat the player who stands back as far away from the window as possible and usually at an odd angle, giving themselves a powerful position while making it hard, at times, for players on the other team to easily pick them out in the position.

    Basically, we want players saying "There is a guy in Bakery!", not "There was a guy in Bakery?" after they get shot. It is more about readability of the space and introducing some tradeoffs to a powerful position.
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited May 2015
    This actually isn't an attempt to stop people from supporting on the window. When people support up on the window they are right at the edge of the window, more easily visible and more vulnerable.

    This is more an attempt to combat the player who stands back as far away from the window as possible and usually at an odd angle, giving themselves a powerful position while making it hard, at times, for players on the other team to easily pick them out in the position.

    Basically, we want players saying "There is a guy in Bakery!", not "There was a guy in Bakery?" after they get shot. It is more about readability of the space and introducing some tradeoffs to a powerful position.
    i'd rather the supported was removed there, and keep the ability to see out the window without standing right there with your head sticking out. there are other ways to counter someone who does that. you can flash them. you can frag them. you can go top blue supported position and shoot them in the face.
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    and that spot (bakery window) is FAR from the only spot on that map that has that issue. i could list some of them off the top of my head. here we go...
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    1. i can see top construction from well behind the bus, through the smallest margins. my opponent will not see me til it's too late. he also can't position himself to watch my spot without getting shot by my teammates in several other parts of the map. (read below about proposed map change that would indeed make this position vulnerable to left flank)
    2. i can see top red and blue through the cracks in the wood at the top of the fence in front of north side bakery. (again, could be countered if left flank was opened for downtown discussed below)
    3. i can see through bottom construction stairs to market from behind bus and ambulance. if the enemy in the market can see me then its too late for them.
    4. i can see a guy lean out the window of red window from back of market without him seeing me. (again, add left flank)
    5. i can see top construction from top red. he can't see me.
    6. i can see defender come top blue from blue stair before he can see me top construction stairs.
    7. i can go supported in south market sandbag near fire escape and headshot anyone who peeks from behind blue dumpster. (fix this power by expanding the playspace explained below, giving defenders option to push that new lane we've been asking for to get to market from south hallway)
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    bottom line. one change such as bakery window will not fix all the other ones.
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    and i know i'm not alone when i say that i was hoping downtown would get an update that included a new pathway from south market to shadowstep assault spawn.. and basically all of shadowstep playspace should be available in downtown. that would make it even easier to combat that bakery window. flank his left side instead of hitting him head on.
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    i'd even go as far as request we expand shadowstep boundary to include behind construction and gas station and that hallway to market from assault spawn, but i can't say that would be positive change or not without testing... my gut feeling is that it would be good to give assault another lane because as of now they can't leave spawn in the other 2 lanes without being shot on sight.


  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    This is just more fixing of things that weren't broken. I would have just moved the window down instead of all this unrealistic awkward box placement stuff. Simpler fixes are almost always better.
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  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    Yeah, those bakery changes need to go. Takes away ALL creativity. Really poor changes.
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    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
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    fix plz
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  • IO_i_OIIO_i_OI Posts: 1,107Player
    The bakery window does not need any changes. Everyone knows to look there for the sniper from on top of red/blue or low south. To open that window would make the position almost useless. I say to revert.
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  • omerta`easyomerta`easy Posts: 46Player
    edited May 2015
    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
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    fix plz

    Thats not what I noticed. I had a much easier time hearing the ladder from anywhere in/around blue in the optin than in the open beta.

    The current window configuration makes it impossible to play the window intelligently. A good player would never stand squarly in the window. A good player is going to hold the window at an angle that does not expose them to anywhere except the area of the map they are watching. This is no longer possible. Good players will never use the new window and the new window encourages new players to play like idiots.

    The blue background is a reasonable change if you want people in the window to stand out better. I am all for changes like this. Make players stand out from their background more, don't take away their ability to effectively use cover.
  • -Ner0--Ner0- Posts: 1,576Player
    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
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    fix plz
    I've just played Downtown and was in Blue Stairs, I could hear an enemy climb the ladder, but it's not as loud as the non-Opt-in version.
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  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 645Player
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
    -
    fix plz
    I've just played Downtown and was in Blue Stairs, I could hear an enemy climb the ladder, but it's not as loud as the non-Opt-in version.

    I couldn't hear it when I was top planter. eK was directly beneath me in Blue at the time.
  • -Ner0--Ner0- Posts: 1,576Player
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
    -
    fix plz
    I've just played Downtown and was in Blue Stairs, I could hear an enemy climb the ladder, but it's not as loud as the non-Opt-in version.

    I couldn't hear it when I was top planter. eK was directly beneath me in Blue at the time.
    I also was on top planter and could hear an enemy climb the ladder and I shot him when he reach the top. But again,the sound isn't as loud as in the non Opt-in version.

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  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
    -
    fix plz
    I've just played Downtown and was in Blue Stairs, I could hear an enemy climb the ladder, but it's not as loud as the non-Opt-in version.
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
    -
    fix plz
    I've just played Downtown and was in Blue Stairs, I could hear an enemy climb the ladder, but it's not as loud as the non-Opt-in version.

    I couldn't hear it when I was top planter. eK was directly beneath me in Blue at the time.
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    ALSO You cant head blue planter ladder from inside the planter building?
    -
    fix plz
    I've just played Downtown and was in Blue Stairs, I could hear an enemy climb the ladder, but it's not as loud as the non-Opt-in version.

    I couldn't hear it when I was top planter. eK was directly beneath me in Blue at the time.
    I also was on top planter and could hear an enemy climb the ladder and I shot him when he reach the top. But again,the sound isn't as loud as in the non Opt-in version.

    Your forgetting this is all now possible you all can be correct. Thanks to HDR and every other crap thing like occlussion.

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  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    Yep, this may be attached to the inconsistencies in audio were all experiencing.. just like when you cant hear gunfire from a certain angle or grenade blasts. I too had the issue on upper planter where a guy climbed up the ladder and killed me from behind.. not sure why he didn't choke :lol: but I didn't hear a peep, the only thing I heard was another dude firing pot shots at me from construction top while i was crouched behind the box taking cover and popping up and down trying to nail him back.
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  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    that occlussion effect...
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • Bam4DBam4D Posts: 976Player
    IMO everyone always knew to check that window... even before these changes. And neutering one of the KEY defense positions is silly, we need to anchor and suppress the assault and if we get popped so be it, sometimes worth the risk.

    Feel we are tweaking to the weak, instead of making them step up and learn.

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  • CramebameCramebame Posts: 11Player
    I'm just shooting in the dark here, but you could always open the other 2 windows on the left and right and put boxes there also, then people would have to say "Left bakery window!"..... and people wouldn't get picked off as easy getting on the box. Then again I never use the window, I like to hunt people down in that map.
  • Yato^Yato^ Posts: 103Player
    This actually isn't an attempt to stop people from supporting on the window. When people support up on the window they are right at the edge of the window, more easily visible and more vulnerable.

    This is more an attempt to combat the player who stands back as far away from the window as possible and usually at an odd angle, giving themselves a powerful position while making it hard, at times, for players on the other team to easily pick them out in the position.

    Basically, we want players saying "There is a guy in Bakery!", not "There was a guy in Bakery?" after they get shot. It is more about readability of the space and introducing some tradeoffs to a powerful position.

    Sounds like an issue of not having true first person and players not paying attention. Just because some players are less competent isn't a reason for dumbing down the game for everyone else to give an impression of a "fair" playing field.
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