Server admin and 3rd party site (PBBans/ACI/ETC) discussion

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  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    edited July 2016
    Don't get me wrong I'm all for anti-cheat, but PB is seemingly a fickle beast.. and if it's not getting updated by even balance and hasn't done for a long time.. I kinda question it's ability to be an effective anti-cheat measure.. then you've got the whole debacle of innocent players getting kicked out of servers.

    I fail to see how players, admins and indeed the producers of the game are not seeing how it's detrimental to the game overall. I mean, lets be real, Who likes getting kicked out of a server? who likes having to faff around trying to fix something you did't even think 'was not' working?

    Something needs to be done to address these kinds of problems, when all people want to do is play the game, peacefully, fairly and without fear of such actions. I'm aware of the need to keep a clean server, well.. as clean as possible but put this next to accusations and ping discrimination and you'll have to forgive me but its really starting to get my back up, and affecting the ability to have any sort of fun playing the game.

    Anyway I've forwarded my concerns to EB, but if my past interactions are anything to go by, they'll take an age to get back to me.. and likely be tight lipped. It's a shame that I feel absolutely nothing productive or helpful will come of anything I've said here, so I guess I'll just have to suffer in silence and hope others are not as affected by it than I seem to be getting.
    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 797Player
    It's good to stay in touch with the people behind the Anti-Cheat software. Every time we bust an unfair player we report it in at the Game Dev Team and EvenBalance. PBSS and/or Video's of the unfair player will be send including the players GUID and what game in order for them to figure out what the unfair player was using at the time and to make it detectable. Yes we are running a old version, but that doesn't mean they are not updating their databases that check servers for Cvar's, MD5's and scans the players. The thing is, a lot of people complain about the software and i understand why but they should just turn in every bit of information to them so they can work on it.
  • -SD-DELTON-ACI--SD-DELTON-ACI- Posts: 1,471Player
    edited July 2016
    Black screenshots can also be caused by minimizing the game or even playing in windows mode.
    gKQ6BB2.png
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    I'm fairly sure there was a pb update this year. On the screenshots, yep definitely not too smart to kick/ban for that, it's usually a neat excuse to get rid of good players. There are admins checking all the screenshots and then there are admins checking good player's screenshots hoping they return black. Screenshot blockers sending black pictures were a thing in AA3, now they just "clean" the screenshots so they return valid.

    Off topic: Anyone remembers screenshots returning steam overlay? (Do they still do that?) We had some "interesting" results back then with NSFW content.
  • ={101st}=Muzza455={101st}=Muzza455 Posts: 1,094Player
    Sli set up or multiple monitor setup has nothing to do with bad pbss . Some of our members have these set ups and have no probs with pbss . And yes everyone who plays on our server including members have to return pbss .
    It's more likely to be some small part of a program or driver did not load on boot and a simple reboot or update would fix .
    Anyone on our server that fails to return a screenshot is always promted by an admin of which I am one . To fix this problem . We direct them to our website that has a guide for this .
    Only after this are they removed from our server until the problem is resolved .
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Sli set up or multiple monitor setup has nothing to do with bad pbss . Some of our members have these set ups and have no probs with pbss .
    Not correct. I've played with a second monitor on while in windowed mode. Extended display on: admin tells me no PBSS returned. Disable Extended and the second monitor: boom, PBSS were fine. I'm glad your members don't have problems, but that doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems for others.
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 797Player
    edited July 2016
    Sli set up or multiple monitor setup has nothing to do with bad pbss.

    You sir are incorrect, like I said before and I'll say it again. It can cause black PBSS.. For some it works fine and for others it doesn't work, all depends on their system setup and their connection with the game server the PBSS is taken from.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    Then figure out what is causing the black screenshots and fix it. Kinda convenient for people to claim "yeah, I'm not returning any screenshots... but don't worry, it's only because (my monitor | my setup | my gpu| other reason)".

    Once again we venture into a place where people expect server admins to simply trust your word that your screenshots would be clear if they showed up.

    Can black screenshots be caused by those mentioned issues? Yeah. Is that the admin's problem? No.

    Participate in the proper function of the anticheat software that is being used or find somewhere to play that doesn't mind that you aren't properly participating.

  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Kicking for black screenshots in 2016 is just plain stupid. Forcing someone to not tab out of the game if he dies early in the round or not use a second monitor while playing is even more stupid.
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    I pretty much guarantee that anyone who's just a run of the mill player is not gonna be thinking it's ok for their screenshots to be black.. and expect any sort of leeway or a pass from anyone.. I mean a new player probably won't even know what a PB screenshot is or what they are even for.
    Ideally they'd want and expect things to be working as intended, so situations whereby being kicked can't or wouldn't happen in the first place and sorry but who goes through a bunch of checks before they play to see if anything could be wrong?

    I can't speak for others but in cases like mine I'd played on servers where screenshots were expected as part of the rules and I'd had no issues beforehand.. so I had no reason to believe there was anything wrong with my PB setup/PC or whatever else causes them to become black (or not return at all). Upon getting kicked out and since accusations were flying as I was playing well, even had people on my own team saying to the opposite team over VOIP that I'd got no recoil on my weapon?? I got kicked for having black screenshots. Can you understand why I might have been angry? why I might have appealed such a kick? and even though I did find out after the case, that my SS were indeed black, the whole situation was a complete buzz kill.

    So I ask, Why did updating PB fix the issue? how did PB get broken or un-updated? and why didn't something tell me something was wrong?.. it took a bad experience to highlight a problem.. and that in itself is a problem.

    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited July 2016
    Participate in the proper function of the anticheat software that is being used or find somewhere to play that doesn't mind that you aren't properly participating.
    No. The black screenshot return is a failure in the anticheat engine and NOT the player's fault. I don't care what the cause is. This is a bad attitude and kicking for blacks instead of telling EvenBalance to detect better is the sign of a bad admin.

    The HUGE hole in your logic is assuming that having two monitors or whatever else implies a dishonest attempt to opt out of the system.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    edited July 2016
    on a sidenote.. I happen to check PBSS of our 3 servers quite often and honestly havent seen much black screenshots. Sometimes (rarely) you will see corrupted screenshots which shows the symptoms mentioned above but the major problem is that some players simply do not produce any screenshots after playing several matches on the server. Checking the logs I often see that their slot is being reset periodically before that slot is taken account for auto pbss.

    So this looks pretty fishy to me as it rarely happens to non-fishy players. (of course an admin usually does not bother to find pbss from average scoring players on server)

    But I would love the see those "full" black pbss that admins do kick for.

  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 797Player
    Then figure out what is causing the black screenshots and fix it. Kinda convenient for people to claim "yeah, I'm not returning any screenshots... but don't worry, it's only because (my monitor | my setup | my gpu| other reason)".

    Once again we venture into a place where people expect server admins to simply trust your word that your screenshots would be clear if they showed up.

    Can black screenshots be caused by those mentioned issues? Yeah. Is that the admin's problem? No.

    Participate in the proper function of the anticheat software that is being used or find somewhere to play that doesn't mind that you aren't properly participating.

    You should educate yourself on how PunkBuster works, saves you the trouble of typing all this.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    Then figure out what is causing the black screenshots and fix it. Kinda convenient for people to claim "yeah, I'm not returning any screenshots... but don't worry, it's only because (my monitor | my setup | my gpu| other reason)".

    Once again we venture into a place where people expect server admins to simply trust your word that your screenshots would be clear if they showed up.

    Can black screenshots be caused by those mentioned issues? Yeah. Is that the admin's problem? No.

    Participate in the proper function of the anticheat software that is being used or find somewhere to play that doesn't mind that you aren't properly participating.

    You should educate yourself on how PunkBuster works, saves you the trouble of typing all this.

    You should avoid assuming you know what people's educational background is, saves you the trouble of typing out backhanded comments.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    Participate in the proper function of the anticheat software that is being used or find somewhere to play that doesn't mind that you aren't properly participating.
    No. The black screenshot return is a failure in the anticheat engine and NOT the player's fault. I don't care what the cause is. This is a bad attitude and kicking for blacks instead of telling EvenBalance to detect better is the sign of a bad admin.

    The HUGE hole in your logic is assuming that having two monitors or whatever else implies a dishonest attempt to opt out of the system.

    You do realize you can kick for black screenshots AND inform EvenBalance of the issue? We at -=312th=- don't kick for black screenshots, but I personally don't see any reason to harp on admins that do.

    I didn't say it was the player's fault, I said it was the player's RESPONSIBILITY. If your system isn't playing nice with the anticheat software then make some noise at Evenbalance and see what they do about it.

    I didn't in any way imply that "having two monitors or whatever" was indication of dishonesty, but the fact that your system is returning black screenshots would, more or less, opt you out of the system without your knowledge until an admin tells you about it or you check your own pbss.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    Kicking for black screenshots in 2016 is just plain stupid. Forcing someone to not tab out of the game if he dies early in the round or not use a second monitor while playing is even more stupid.

    My stance on this issue is pretty much the same as my stance on the VAC ban issue: If you don't like the way a server owner is running THEIR server then find a server that is more suitable for you.

    This is the Internet, the majority of servers in that browser list are paid for by people who have the right to run them as they see fit.... So you can find a server that doesn't mind that you got caught cheating (in the case of VAC banned accounts) or trusts that those black screenshots are unintentional or you can go full "suburban mom" and complain about how unfair it is that you are expected to meet the same standards as every other player in regards to producing screenshots or not getting busted with cheat software.

    I think that's pretty much as clear as I can say it.
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 797Player
    Then figure out what is causing the black screenshots and fix it. Kinda convenient for people to claim "yeah, I'm not returning any screenshots... but don't worry, it's only because (my monitor | my setup | my gpu| other reason)".

    Once again we venture into a place where people expect server admins to simply trust your word that your screenshots would be clear if they showed up.

    Can black screenshots be caused by those mentioned issues? Yeah. Is that the admin's problem? No.

    Participate in the proper function of the anticheat software that is being used or find somewhere to play that doesn't mind that you aren't properly participating.

    You should educate yourself on how PunkBuster works, saves you the trouble of typing all this.

    You should avoid assuming you know what people's educational background is.

    There is a difference between me telling someone to educate himself on a subject, and talking about people's educational background. Make no mistake my friend.

    To come back to banning/kicking people for black pbss, go for it. If you all want to be the dummy's that do that be my guest. This is starting to look like a discussion I had in '07 when people started to ban players because they had white circles in their pbss only because they used Windows Vista.

    In order to "block" the pbss you need a blocker that injects itself into the PB Software and messing around with it. This process is detected 9,5/10 times and will result in a Global Ban or a HID Ban. So kicking people for black pbss, is for dummy's.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    Then figure out what is causing the black screenshots and fix it. Kinda convenient for people to claim "yeah, I'm not returning any screenshots... but don't worry, it's only because (my monitor | my setup | my gpu| other reason)".

    Once again we venture into a place where people expect server admins to simply trust your word that your screenshots would be clear if they showed up.

    Can black screenshots be caused by those mentioned issues? Yeah. Is that the admin's problem? No.

    Participate in the proper function of the anticheat software that is being used or find somewhere to play that doesn't mind that you aren't properly participating.

    You should educate yourself on how PunkBuster works, saves you the trouble of typing all this.

    You should avoid assuming you know what people's educational background is.

    There is a difference between me telling someone to educate himself on a subject, and talking about people's educational background. Make no mistake my friend.

    To come back to banning/kicking people for black pbss, go for it. If you all want to be the dummy's that do that be my guest. This is starting to look like a discussion I had in '07 when people started to ban players because they had white circles in their pbss only because they used Windows Vista.

    In order to "block" the pbss you need a blocker that injects itself into the PB Software and messing around with it. This process is detected 9,5/10 times and will result in a Global Ban or a HID Ban. So kicking people for black pbss, is for dummy's.

    You've taken the discussion to an entirely different level. My point was that admins removing players who do not produce anything other than black screenshots is reasonable in my opinion. I didn't say they were intentionally blocking their screenshots as there would be no way an admin could know if they were. I won't "go for it" because as I said we do not have that policy on the -=312th=- servers but that doesn't mean I have to disagree with those who enforce such a policy because it isn't unreasonable.

    Once again a thread devolves into circular repetition...

    "Why they ban for black pbss?"
    "Because it can be caused by your setup issues (dual monitor, sli, etc) AND potentially by screenshot cleaners"
    "Yeah, but nobody uses screenshot cleaners anymore"
    "Eh... they could. Better safe than sorry"
    "ZOMG!!!1!! BADMINS!!"
    "Hey, if you don't like the way they run their server play somewhere else"
    "No. You just don't get it"

    and so on and so forth...

    Once again, If you aren't happy with the way a server is run by it's admins then BY ALL MEANS play somewhere else.... It really isn't that hard.
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 797Player
    edited July 2016
    You've taken the discussion to an entirely different level. My point was that admins removing players who do not produce anything other than black screenshots is reasonable in my opinion..

    No, kicking players for a black pbss is just not from this time anymore.
    People need to grow up and move on and stop being Dummy Admins (my opinion).
    But be my guest, let them kick for it.. Not my server that is getting empty.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    That's all I was trying to say! I've seen admins make plenty of other dumb calls that deserve way more ridicule than black screenshots. I think I'm just tired of hearing people complain about why they get kicked... Either follow the process of getting unbanned or don't and find a better server! No need to be uncivil, amirite?
  • -SD-DELTON-ACI--SD-DELTON-ACI- Posts: 1,471Player
    edited July 2016
    Here are a few good reasons we like to see clear screenshots from players on our server.

    [mod edit naming/shaming]
    I have to say its very rare we see all black screenshots but if a player does have all black pbss we ask them to fix and guide them here.
    http://www.souldefenders.net/index.php/forum/public-general-chat/1922-help-i-was-told-to-fix-my-screenshots-what-does-that-mean
    99.9% of the time when they do this it works also if your a admin and have a player with "Screenshot transfer was incomplete" if you use PunkBuster Server WebTool for PG you can click "pb_sv_getss" and force a screenshot from a player.
    gKQ6BB2.png
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