Server admin and 3rd party site (PBBans/ACI/ETC) discussion

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  • frankoffrankof Posts: 1,055Moderator
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?
    How about the trash?
    Keep personal issues out of here, thank you.

    ss_4_frankof.png
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player

    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?
  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?

    Nobody is trying to crash a party.
    A few pages ago i have wrote an idea and i guess you didnt see it.
    The main point of it was that a good solution for this issue is for ACI not to make the VAC secure server as a boolean value but to give admins also the option to choose VAC period and number of bans.
    If you want better information you should read the previous post ive wrote in regard to this
  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    This is exactly the toxic doxxing / blackmail culture I am talking about.
    This is why many developers are concerned with 3rd party sites building dossiers on private users.
    It has too much potential for abuse.
    The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    And now what we get is:
    "Yeah, I change game data"
    "But changing game data is against the TOS"
    "Yeah, but I do what I want, mind your business"
    "Hey you got VAC/ACI/Dev banned for changing game data"
    "Well that's not fair.. I was just changing movement speed/recoil/damage/{insert any variable here} for the sake of testing"
    "That's also against the TOS"
    "Well they should put that in the TOS"
    "THEY DO"
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?

    Nobody is trying to crash a party.
    A few pages ago i have wrote an idea and i guess you didnt see it.
    The main point of it was that a good solution for this issue is for ACI not to make the VAC secure server as a boolean value but to give admins also the option to choose VAC period and number of bans.
    If you want better information you should read the previous post ive wrote in regard to this

    That's a fine idea, one which Soldier has agreed could be discussed from WITHIN the ACI community. Yet the argument continues further as to what should and should not be considered cheating. If you own a server, feel free to keep the option disabled until such time that it is modified. Until then, VAC banned accounts remain kicked on servers that have the option enabled.

  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?

    Nobody is trying to crash a party.
    A few pages ago i have wrote an idea and i guess you didnt see it.
    The main point of it was that a good solution for this issue is for ACI not to make the VAC secure server as a boolean value but to give admins also the option to choose VAC period and number of bans.
    If you want better information you should read the previous post ive wrote in regard to this

    That's a fine idea, one which Soldier has agreed could be discussed from WITHIN the ACI community. Yet the argument continues further as to what should and should not be considered cheating. If you own a server, feel free to keep the option disabled until such time that it is modified. Until then, VAC banned accounts remain kicked on servers that have the option enabled.

    You will never have access to what exactly caused the ban(or atleast untill steam will allow it)
    I know perfectly well that every individual case of VAC is different and anybody can claim they did not cheat or didnt do something really bad.
    Thats why this is a big problem and should be handled by discussions with Steam
    But giving admins the ability to choose, not for WHAT because thats not possible but atleast which people to screen by allowing them to choose number of bans allowed and the time from the last ban will in my opinion will be a small contribute in this matter
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?

    Nobody is trying to crash a party.
    A few pages ago i have wrote an idea and i guess you didnt see it.
    The main point of it was that a good solution for this issue is for ACI not to make the VAC secure server as a boolean value but to give admins also the option to choose VAC period and number of bans.
    If you want better information you should read the previous post ive wrote in regard to this

    That's a fine idea, one which Soldier has agreed could be discussed from WITHIN the ACI community. Yet the argument continues further as to what should and should not be considered cheating. If you own a server, feel free to keep the option disabled until such time that it is modified. Until then, VAC banned accounts remain kicked on servers that have the option enabled.

    You will never have access to what exactly caused the ban(or atleast untill steam will allow it)
    I know perfectly well that every individual case of VAC is different and anybody can claim they did not cheat or didnt do something really bad.
    Thats why this is a big problem and should be handled by discussions with Steam
    But giving admins the ability to choose, not for WHAT because thats not possible but atleast which people to screen by allowing them to choose number of bans allowed and the time from the last ban will in my opinion will be a small contribute in this matter

    Maybe, but that is a discussion for the server owners/admins to have. The opinion of those affected by the process doesn't play a part in this because, as you said, only Valve and the offender know why they were VAC banned. As an admin for our clan's servers that option sounds fine to me but that is for each server/clan to decide upon. The key thing to take away from this is that in no case would I find it acceptable to have ban policy dictated by the very people that get banned for cheating.

  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    And now what we get is:
    "Yeah, I change game data"
    "But changing game data is against the TOS"
    "Yeah, but I do what I want, mind your business"
    "Hey you got VAC/ACI/Dev banned for changing game data"
    "Well that's not fair.. I was just changing movement speed/recoil/damage/{insert any variable here} for the sake of testing"
    "That's also against the TOS"
    "Well they should put that in the TOS"
    "THEY DO"
    While your logic here is completely correct, I think you missed the point I intended to make. Clean play inside multiplayer servers is the goal; policing anything and everything outside of that arena to build an idea for whether or not you think somebody *might* cheat is what I wish weren't necessary.

    Ideally, PB (or VAC or EAC or FairFight or...) would be perfect and there'd be no need for third-party services to track history because anything being used would immediately be detected and removed.
  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?

    Nobody is trying to crash a party.
    A few pages ago i have wrote an idea and i guess you didnt see it.
    The main point of it was that a good solution for this issue is for ACI not to make the VAC secure server as a boolean value but to give admins also the option to choose VAC period and number of bans.
    If you want better information you should read the previous post ive wrote in regard to this

    That's a fine idea, one which Soldier has agreed could be discussed from WITHIN the ACI community. Yet the argument continues further as to what should and should not be considered cheating. If you own a server, feel free to keep the option disabled until such time that it is modified. Until then, VAC banned accounts remain kicked on servers that have the option enabled.

    You will never have access to what exactly caused the ban(or atleast untill steam will allow it)
    I know perfectly well that every individual case of VAC is different and anybody can claim they did not cheat or didnt do something really bad.
    Thats why this is a big problem and should be handled by discussions with Steam
    But giving admins the ability to choose, not for WHAT because thats not possible but atleast which people to screen by allowing them to choose number of bans allowed and the time from the last ban will in my opinion will be a small contribute in this matter

    Maybe, but that is a discussion for the server owners/admins to have. The opinion of those affected by the process doesn't play a part in this because, as you said, only Valve and the offender know why they were VAC banned. As an admin for our clan's servers that option sounds fine to me but that is for each server/clan to decide upon. The key thing to take away from this is that in no case would I find it acceptable to have ban policy dictated by the very people that get banned for cheating.

    I guess you still dont understand my intention.
    Giving admins the option to choose doesnt effect them in any way. They can choose to use the option or not. But having the option to do so will be the contribution i talked about
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    edited June 2016
    Saccho wrote: »
    And now what we get is:
    "Yeah, I change game data"
    "But changing game data is against the TOS"
    "Yeah, but I do what I want, mind your business"
    "Hey you got VAC/ACI/Dev banned for changing game data"
    "Well that's not fair.. I was just changing movement speed/recoil/damage/{insert any variable here} for the sake of testing"
    "That's also against the TOS"
    "Well they should put that in the TOS"
    "THEY DO"
    While your logic here is completely correct, I think you missed the point I intended to make. Clean play inside multiplayer servers is the goal; policing anything and everything outside of that arena to build an idea for whether or not you think somebody *might* cheat is what I wish weren't necessary.

    Ideally, PB (or VAC or EAC or FairFight or...) would be perfect and there'd be no need for third-party services to track history because anything being used would immediately be detected and removed.

    I agree, but that's where our points mesh. You are a tinkerer, and I respect that, but I would never cede that mere interest in how something works warrants a violation of the software's TOS. Your intentions in reverse-engineering become unimportant when the methods used are similar or identical to those used for malicious purposes. People can't just elect themselves to be Batman and expect that all other users will trust/accept that they won't use their power for evil.

    Altering or reverse-engineering the Source Engine game code in ANY way is against Valve's TOS except as allowed by their terms. That means no matter how much you really want to know what the inner working of CS:GO looks like you still aren't allowed to pop the hood. Doing so is a violation of the TOS regardless of your intention and Valve issues VAC bans for this reason.

    Anticheat programs do their best to detect cheats but therein lies the problem: EvenBalance is very secretive about their methods in order to protect those methods. VAC doesn't kick-in instantly and heavily obfuscates their methods to protect those methods. Every time they come up with a new way to detect cheats someone inevitably comes up with a way to circumvent that detection and a new method has to be formed.

    Do I trust PunkBuster? The Dev's? ACI? The answer is all the same. I trust them enough to keep the majority of cheaters out of the game so that legitimate players like myself can enjoy the gameplay.
    Then, once I've had my fun, I go outside and enjoy life and don't really pay much mind to how bans work or what constitutes a cheat because I don't have any inherent need to see the inner workings of the game in order to play it. Neither does any player that isn't given express permission to do so.

  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    edited June 2016
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?

    Nobody is trying to crash a party.
    A few pages ago i have wrote an idea and i guess you didnt see it.
    The main point of it was that a good solution for this issue is for ACI not to make the VAC secure server as a boolean value but to give admins also the option to choose VAC period and number of bans.
    If you want better information you should read the previous post ive wrote in regard to this

    That's a fine idea, one which Soldier has agreed could be discussed from WITHIN the ACI community. Yet the argument continues further as to what should and should not be considered cheating. If you own a server, feel free to keep the option disabled until such time that it is modified. Until then, VAC banned accounts remain kicked on servers that have the option enabled.

    You will never have access to what exactly caused the ban(or atleast untill steam will allow it)
    I know perfectly well that every individual case of VAC is different and anybody can claim they did not cheat or didnt do something really bad.
    Thats why this is a big problem and should be handled by discussions with Steam
    But giving admins the ability to choose, not for WHAT because thats not possible but atleast which people to screen by allowing them to choose number of bans allowed and the time from the last ban will in my opinion will be a small contribute in this matter

    Maybe, but that is a discussion for the server owners/admins to have. The opinion of those affected by the process doesn't play a part in this because, as you said, only Valve and the offender know why they were VAC banned. As an admin for our clan's servers that option sounds fine to me but that is for each server/clan to decide upon. The key thing to take away from this is that in no case would I find it acceptable to have ban policy dictated by the very people that get banned for cheating.

    I guess you still dont understand my intention.
    Giving admins the option to choose doesnt effect them in any way. They can choose to use the option or not. But having the option to do so will be the contribution i talked about

    Once again, I point out that Soldier, an administrator for ACI, has already posted in this thread stating that the option to ban for # of bans and/or time from last ban would be a possibility given that it would first be discussed by the ACI staff and community. I'm not arguing against that option in the least bit. I feel as though I may be missing your point since we've come to repeat ourselves so please lay out what your intention is in clear terms so that I can finally comprehend whether or not we are in agreement.
  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.

    Perhaps not, but encouraging people to break the conditions of their license agreement in a public forum might not be a good strategy.
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.

    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    I just want to point out that this quote is not rightfully attributed to me. I did not say the above quote.
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!

    True, Unless a server admin decides that they want that ban to extend to the game their server runs. Nothing you can do about it, not going to change, never going to happen.

    Find servers that don't employ this feature and play there. Why bother trying to crash a party you aren't welcome at?

    Nobody is trying to crash a party.
    A few pages ago i have wrote an idea and i guess you didnt see it.
    The main point of it was that a good solution for this issue is for ACI not to make the VAC secure server as a boolean value but to give admins also the option to choose VAC period and number of bans.
    If you want better information you should read the previous post ive wrote in regard to this

    That's a fine idea, one which Soldier has agreed could be discussed from WITHIN the ACI community. Yet the argument continues further as to what should and should not be considered cheating. If you own a server, feel free to keep the option disabled until such time that it is modified. Until then, VAC banned accounts remain kicked on servers that have the option enabled.

    You will never have access to what exactly caused the ban(or atleast untill steam will allow it)
    I know perfectly well that every individual case of VAC is different and anybody can claim they did not cheat or didnt do something really bad.
    Thats why this is a big problem and should be handled by discussions with Steam
    But giving admins the ability to choose, not for WHAT because thats not possible but atleast which people to screen by allowing them to choose number of bans allowed and the time from the last ban will in my opinion will be a small contribute in this matter

    Maybe, but that is a discussion for the server owners/admins to have. The opinion of those affected by the process doesn't play a part in this because, as you said, only Valve and the offender know why they were VAC banned. As an admin for our clan's servers that option sounds fine to me but that is for each server/clan to decide upon. The key thing to take away from this is that in no case would I find it acceptable to have ban policy dictated by the very people that get banned for cheating.

    I guess you still dont understand my intention.
    Giving admins the option to choose doesnt effect them in any way. They can choose to use the option or not. But having the option to do so will be the contribution i talked about

    Once again, I point out that Soldier, an administrator for ACI, has already posted in this thread stating that the option to ban for # of bans and/or time from last ban would be a possibility given that it would first be discussed by the ACI staff and community. I'm not arguing against that option in the least bit. I feel as though I may be missing your point since we've come to repeat ourselves so please lay out what your intention is in clear terms so that I can finally comprehend whether or not we are in agreement.

    We are definatly in agreement. I was refering what you have said here:

    "Maybe, but that is a discussion for the server owners/admins to have. The opinion of those affected by the process doesn't play a part in this because, as you said, only Valve and the offender know why they were VAC banned. As an admin for our clan's servers that option sounds fine to me but that is for each server/clan to decide upon. The key thing to take away from this is that in no case would I find it acceptable to have ban policy dictated by the very people that get banned for cheating."

    I never tried to argue that banned players have any control over admins or dictate the terms.
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 797Player
    edited July 2016
    TheTots wrote: »
    This is exactly the toxic doxxing / blackmail culture I am talking about.
    This is why many developers are concerned with 3rd party sites building dossiers on private users.
    It has too much potential for abuse.

    I agree, because I gave my opinions in this topic about the VAC Ban Enforcement and talking with you Devs of this game on the game's forum they banned me from their website for it. Well, at least i can say now that i am proud owner of a ban in a AC Organization lol :proud: It just proved to me what you were saying all along. Makes me wonder who else got blocked from their services out of this topic.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    TheTots wrote: »
    This is exactly the toxic doxxing / blackmail culture I am talking about.
    This is why many developers are concerned with 3rd party sites building dossiers on private users.
    It has too much potential for abuse.

    I agree, because I gave my opinions in this topic about the VAC Ban Enforcement and talking with you Devs of this game on the game's forum they banned me from their website for it. Well, at least i can say now that i am proud owner of a ban in a AC Organization lol :proud: It just proved to me what you were saying all along. Makes me wonder who else got blocked from their services out of this topic.

    Me for another thread in the past. Not that I'd care but it seems unprofessional to me to just ban people sharing a different opinion.
  • frankoffrankof Posts: 1,055Moderator
    Makes me wonder who else got blocked from their services out of this topic.
    Who knows, but try to sort it in PM rather than here in public.
    ss_4_frankof.png
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 630Player
    Pm.......cmon frankof. Ban expires:never :) Gl sending a pm.
    AAPG is good!
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    I like the consistent policy however. "Once a troll, always a troll".
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 797Player
    edited July 2016
    Pm.......cmon frankof. Ban expires:never :) Gl sending a pm.

    I think he means PM it on this forum, not there :pleased:
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    I like the consistent policy however. "Once a troll, always a troll".

    Right :lol:
  • -SD-DELTON-ACI--SD-DELTON-ACI- Posts: 1,471Player
    Now we have steam names ingame its easy to see a VAC ban but its always been that simple.
    gKQ6BB2.png
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