Server admin and 3rd party site (PBBans/ACI/ETC) discussion

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  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    edited June 2016
    -SD-DELTON wrote: »
    -SD-DELTON wrote: »
    My name keeps being brought up here also my clan.
    Please stop deleting my post I have a right to reply to all this bs.

    First of all if ACI did not cover anticheat for this game I would never play it again.
    They are the only anticheat in my opinion that keep this game 99% clean from hackers.
    Think what the game would be like without them it would only last about 3 months before the game died and was left with just hackers playing it.
    As for VAC bans you got a VAC ban for doing something that the game does not allow
    that's cheating no matter how you dress it up.
    My clan spends about £600 per year on this game with servers ts and website all dedicated to Americas army proving grounds.
    Why should we let a hacker that gets a fee hack spoil our game and waist the money we spend on it.
    Like it or not if you hack in any game or get a VAC ban your not and never will be welcome on our server even if you continue playing until you 100 years old.
    You only cry after you get caught and as soon as a topic like this pops up you think its your big chance to get your ban forgotten about its never going to happen.
    If you don't like it stop trying to join severs you know are covered by anticheat or set up your own server and call it something like ALL HACKERS WELCOME.
    See how long it last.
    Please do not delete my post I have a right to voice my opinion.

    Nobody have never argued that your clan doesnt have the right to do whatever they feel like. You can do as you wish since you pay. The only issue we brought up was that servers with the same mindset as yours are making it really hard to increase the playerbase for this game.
    And ive said multiple times that your clan is notorious for banning players and clans that do not have any bad history but the only thing they did wrong was outplay the members in your clan.

    As for the rest of your post nobody cried we were discussing the issue at hand, so please stop posting toxic comments

    You got it wrong again -SD- never ban because a player is good they ban because.

    1.Racist Remarks/Admin abuse = Ban
    2.Cheaters ini changers or macro users will be banned.

    You clan is banned because of you, how does that make you feel not bad enough to stop you doing what you did.

    Again yoy are dragging me to this discussion. We have been banned long ago way longer that i received the VAC, you can lie about it all day long but that is a fact.
    Now im not here to argue with you and id you keep doing that a mod will probably delete these posts again so please try to keep this discussion clean.

    This discussion does nothing to do with me, my ship as already sailed long ago its a discussion about 3rd party tools
  • -SD-DELTON-ACI--SD-DELTON-ACI- Posts: 1,471Player
    edited June 2016
    Like I said before I am willing to give a dev or ACI access to our private forum to prove that you are mistaken.
    Just like you was when you said -SD- had a server on AA3 -SD- never owned a server on AA3.
    gKQ6BB2.png
  • [CLS]_SgtMac[CLS]_SgtMac Posts: 199Moderator
    Please stay on topic
  • -SD-DELTON-ACI--SD-DELTON-ACI- Posts: 1,471Player
    Please stay on topic

    Ok sorry i will.
    gKQ6BB2.png
  • -=[USA]=-rubberboot-ACI--=[USA]=-rubberboot-ACI- Posts: 126Beta Tester
    I dont think its a question of "pulling on the bigboy pants" not everybody have an issue to claim ownership for theyre own mistakes, the problem is that the mistake they have made does not always justify the harsh sentence they recieve.
    I dont consider the cashier analogy as a good one since the cashier is working for that store,
    I dont know if this one is a much better one but my view its more like
    If somebody stole from a specific store for the first time in his life would you ban him from getting into all stores around the world?

    I think the analogy I used still fits - the "workplace" in a sense is the game you are playing right now. It would be up to the specific store owner themselves on whether to allow you in the store, or maybe they use a security company to try and keep out the shoplifters?

    I could have used an analogy of someone cheating on there girlfriend... same thing applies, yet I don't think you with get the same new account do-over with her. :)

    I have seen enough people unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions, in gaming is no different - it was my brother/sister/room mate/mod for another game/somebody in Russia/driver update/<insert excuse here>. People love to blame share in hopes that it will lessen the blow.

    The ones I actually feel bad for, are the ones that had their account stolen. This is identity theft really, and the victim gets the double whammy of getting punished twice. Unfortunately though, because there was poor account security, there still is only 1 person to blame for it and the consequences from it.

    if I screw up, I don't expect forgiveness. Best I could hope for is to earn back some respect after some time.

    BTW, I am not a "once a cheater, always a cheater" theory supporter on second accounts. While I am not a supporter, it does not mean I won't be watching and waiting....

    for games like BF3/4 where there is a cost involved with owning a new account, it is a greater deterrent than AAPG's free status - like I said earlier I have seen 1 individual that has 14 banned AAPG linked accounts... as fast as they were banned, a new account was started. This guy is not someone I would enjoy playing with.


  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    Yeah.. that would require some sort of hardware or IP ban ..which they're not willing to do . I agree it should be much more difficult to make a second account, maybe even go through some screening process.

    As much as I don't like the idea of banning an entire clan, I do like the point made earlier that the clan is only banned as long as the player is still on the team. . That works.
    _____________________________
    #Support Comp Mode

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    If alt accounts could be stopped, they would be. Short of doing some really nasty virus like stuff, it's always going to be easy to make a new account.

    You can spoof basically anything.
    The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    You cannot get a VAC ban without running a cheat program. SSKnecabo I do not know how do you validate the cheating player but to me who runs a cheat program, for whatever reason is a cheater. I know alot of players are claiming they are getting banned on using skins, well the truth is a they are using a multihack program inorder to use those skins. You might say that is not cheat but VAC, PB and I do disagree.
    That sounds like the one ban appel ACI had with simmiliar issue. There was one player who claimed he only used multihack (or something similiar) to cheat and get skins on all the guns. That ban was not lifted by PB. Fair or not? I say that was fair ban and I do not have any problem keeping that player away from my server.
    Kids play these games but they are not desinged for kinds. Or does the devs want 10 year olds run around shooting people in game, doubt it. Some players may get banned because their kid did something stupid but it is each players responsibility to keep their account cheat free - if they want to call them cheat free players-.

    I have posted direct link to steam page, let me do it again and please do read it through so you actually understand how VAC bans work. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7849-Radz-6869&l=english
    YOU CAN'T GET A VAC BAN WITHOUT DOWNLOADING AND RUNNING A CHEAT PROGRAM!!!

    Now I am repeating myself but I want you lot to understand where anticheat people come from. ACI streams and upholds bans from AA3,AAPG,BF3,BF4,BFH,BC2 and MOHW. And choises for these games is gross game ban, meaning you are banned in certain time in AA3 - there was time about 4 years ago when steam upholeded GUID for AA3 - so if you got banned that time the same GUID will be kicked from server if AAPG server owner has the enabled. I have not seen a signle kick that way but we still keep it enabled just cause we provide decend service.
    Secondly we enable cross guid kick between bf3,bf4 and mohw. Some complain that is unfair, sure some might think but who enforces that did not cheat and get the guid banned.

    ACI is not once a cheater always a cheater, period. However we provide our mebers enable/disable buttons to choose how they like to run their server. This includes a kick for VAC bans. Some may be banned for wrong reasons or for old VAC ban but you can always create a new steam account, same way as if you get banned by PB.
    If you are a server owner you can do as you like. Run ACI, don't run ACI. Run pbbans, don't run pbbans. And etc. I guess you guess my drift.

    It's simply not true, custom skins are as easy as replacing a file so unless you consider windows programs a cheat there is no need for any cheating program in order to do that.
    The kids argument is funny since we have paintball mode, I'm almost certain devs welcome kids/teenagers playing the game. Kids do mistakes, some learn and some don't. Why is there still this weird zero tolerance policy I only see for this game? Why is it blamed on the admins choosing that way if there is barely any alternative? Why does it need to be the on/off policy not letting admins decide to lift 1st time offenders VAC ban after x years?

    There is no "Zero Tolerance Policy" as evidenced by the fact that not all servers kick for VAC bans. The fact that some do is not representative of an overall problem. If someone is kicked from a server for a VAC ban they should get the hint that they aren't welcome to play on that server at the time. They should talk to server owners for more information on what rules they ban for on their server and attempt to get it changed OR find another server that doesn't kick for VAC bans. The solution is NOT to try and brute force the issue into making the presence of cheat software on a system insignificant.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    I've got a lot of games. I've done things like decompile source code or modify memory values for the sake of investigating how things work or to check out end-game content in single-player-only titles without investing hundreds/thousands of hours (tons of games have great stories and really tedious gameplay).

    None of this ever negatively affects anyone else. It, in fact, drives the creation of content like my Steam guide to AAPG weapon mechanics, or similar posts I've made on other sites for games like World of Tanks or Stardew Valley.

    If I ever got a ban for that -- which in no way negatively affects anybody else or alters their experience of the games! -- it seems wrong to want to expand that to cover **everything** in my library.


    This is far less black and white than you suggest. Answers to questions like "How much damage do these guns do?" and similar usually comes from people like me decompiling code and breaking into game files. Modifying files doesn't automatically imply bad behavior.
  • -vR.cialone!--vR.cialone!- Posts: 121Player
    So, with all of these background checks ... any chance my clean BG can get me unbanned or has that ship sailed?

    #freecialone
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    I've got a lot of games. I've done things like decompile source code or modify memory values for the sake of investigating how things work or to check out end-game content in single-player-only titles without investing hundreds/thousands of hours (tons of games have great stories and really tedious gameplay).

    None of this ever negatively affects anyone else. It, in fact, drives the creation of content like my Steam guide to AAPG weapon mechanics, or similar posts I've made on other sites for games like World of Tanks or Stardew Valley.

    If I ever got a ban for that -- which in no way negatively affects anybody else or alters their experience of the games! -- it seems wrong to want to expand that to cover **everything** in my library.


    This is far less black and white than you suggest. Answers to questions like "How much damage do these guns do?" and similar usually comes from people like me decompiling code and breaking into game files. Modifying files doesn't automatically imply bad behavior.

    Are they open-source games? Do you have permission from the publisher to modify that game data? Whether or not you deem it "unfair" you still require permission from the publisher to modify the game data. How many people get caught reverse-engineering a game for the purpose of learning the way it works? Nearly none because you should only ever do that on a rig designed to be closed for those purposes. Now, change that data and it becomes apparent that your goal isn't "education".
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Are they open-source games? Do you have permission from the publisher to modify that game data? Whether or not you deem it "unfair" you still require permission from the publisher to modify the game data.
    Legality of anyone's actions isn't yours to police.
    How many people get caught reverse-engineering a game for the purpose of learning the way it works? Nearly none because you should only ever do that on a rig designed to be closed for those purposes.
    True, but somewhat irrelevant to the point I was making.
    Now, change that data and it becomes apparent that your goal isn't "education".
    Patently false. I've changed plenty of data for the sake of understanding how things work or testing limits of systems. Please don't impugn my motives.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    edited June 2016
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    You said you'd prefer 100 cheaters not being banned over a few false positives or something according to that line. I'm just telling you that enforcing VAC bans is conflicting with that statement.

    I'm not the one that has to contact Valve asking for further ban information. That's up to the people trying to use them in their private system which is simply not what Valve intents.
  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.
    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.
    TheTots wrote: »
    Ok guys, last warning. This is actually a good topic to discuss, but personal feelings and attacks are getting thrown around too much. We are all adults here, we can have a drama free actual discussion.

    There's no one good answer to cheating. That's why it still exists in every online game. It's all about how you mitigate the damage it can do and how you respond to it.

    For those in the "once a cheater, always a cheater" camp, you would be permabanning most game devs I know with that attitude. Many of us spent a lot of our youth "pushing the limits" of games and breaking things just for fun and to learn.

    I, personally, used to do RMT and work with multihacks on MMOs when I was in my late teens / early 20s. Should that mean I'm black listed from playing any online game ever again? Nah. I was a kid and did stupid stuff.

    As I grew up I turned that stupidity into something productive and made a career out of it. Keep in mind here that we're talking about cheating on a video game. Yes it sucks, yes you are lame if you do it, but we're not talking 1st degree murder.

    Lifetime sentences and punishments based off of shaky evidence (shared IPs, etc) seems like the punishment isn't fitting the crime.

    How many of those game dev's have VAC bans? How many of them have bans directly linked to their current player account from any openly-available source?

    Yes, everyone has probably used a "cheat code" in an old single-player game but that's not even close to the same thing. Using a cheat in a single player games just means that the game itself knows you are a cheater and let's you win.

    In PvP it is entirely different. You are deliberately using unfair advantages to play against live opponents and claim that it was your "skill" rather than some ill-gotten piece of code.

    Put simply, if you don't have a ban linked to your account then you get the same treatment as players that are cheating but haven't been caught yet: you get to play. If you do have a linked ban then there are several options: You play at the admin's discretion or you get banned by the admin because you were caught cheating.

    I'm all for fairness in regards to catching cheaters... I'd rather 100 guilty people go free than have one innocent person get wrongfully convicted.

    It's similar to the way an IRL background check works... Yeah, maybe you robbed a store 10 years ago and did 5 years behind bars. You served your time but that doesn't mean EVERY employer is going to be okay with hiring someone with that smear on their record regardless of how adamantly you claim to "not be that person anymore".

    As for bans placed by admins wrongfully using the tools that are available to them, that is on THEM, not the entirety of the ACI community.

    I agree with you. And the point was that you can get VAC not in PvP games.
    And that was the main issue in this discussion. If you want some reference you can read some of my replies in this topic it will give you a goos idea on what i am talking about

    I understand what your point is. The problem is that you are mixing the details of the point. Yes, you can get VAC bans for non-pvp games. That's at the discretion of the game developer. Since they don't tell us what your VAC ban was for you get lumped in with others who got their VAC ban for cheating in a PvP game. Unfortunately, giving someone the benefit of the doubt comes with inherent risks... Basically, the entirety of what you should take away from what I said is don't cheat and you don't have to defend having cheated.

    Choose one, using VAC bans will always result in a ton innocent people getting wronfully convicted.

    Not according to Valve. They've made it clear that VAC bans are placed for using cheat programs. Since it is very often the same cheat programs that are used for both purposes the person is still caught for the same reason: having cheat software modifying their game data. Don't modify your game data for any reason and there is no problem!

    It's not a hard concept....

    Read Ima's posts, Valve bans for what they define as cheating when in reality it's not really the kind of cheating you'd usually think of.

    It is still cheating using cheat software. Muddling the definition of what constitutes a cheat is something that should be taken up with Valve, not placed on the admins who ban based on VAC. As I said, don't modify your game data and there is no problem. Answering that with "Yeah, but I want to modify my game data" is a distinction without a difference.

    Point is that people don't know what can be considered a cheat. If some 10 year old kid sees a video about getting some nice MW2 custom skins it's highly unlikely there is enough knowledge about how A/C works and that it can trigger bans. Hacker lobbies where you literally have no influence at all are also not really cheating. People actually hated those lobbies so much they made a tool to reset statistics in order to rank up properly. Guess what, this obviously gets you banned as well regardless if it's for good intentions and the sake of fair play. After all it's an automated system and things like that are reality. As Saccho said, it's not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

    So, what I am supposed to *learn* from you is that Valve is wrong about their VAC system and Admins should take someone's word for it if they say their VAC ban wasn't for cheating despite Valve's adamant and credible claim that their system only bans for cheats? Ah.... I see where I was misinformed. I'll be happy to notify everyone that we should be asking people what their VAC ban was for and trusting them when they say it was just a misunderstanding.
    Handling your account is every player's responsibility and when someone fails to do so they pay the price. As it has already been pointed out, just get a new account if you don't want it to be an issue. Cheaters may have "privacy rights" from official sources such as dev's and whatnot but they do not have that same right when it deals with openly available information outside the control of dev's.

    But, I digress. We can easily disagree on what constitutes a cheat but the question still remains: What is it that people want changed? If you want the way VAC bans are handled changed, contact Valve. If you want ACI to change their policies, contact ACI. If you want cheaters to have any type of upper-hand in online gaming, plan on fighting that fight either alone or with cheaters because legitimate players don't want do hear it.

    I think the main issue is that VAC is right with 99% of the bans but not all those bans were justifies.
    And the most important thing to remember is that steam is well aware that a punishment in a specific game does not mean that the player will be banned on all steam games!
    You recieve the ban for the specific game you played!
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    Thank you for opening that door. Where do you want me to post the document dump on everything I have regarding you and the PunkBuster hack you were involved in?

    Someone told me your a high ranking official over at ACI.. I'm not so sure threatening the release of personal info of any individual is very wise. Were debating anti cheat not outing each other for anything. People are taking it too personally.
    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






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