Doba....My response is getting a little old? I give credit that you are more than able to make a basic map in an editor and have someone finish it off. You think that is criticism?! I give you credit that you might know more about what makes a map work, and admit it's a difficult thing for us mappers to get a handle on.
Admit it. Either you're AFRAID of the editors little buttons or you just feel good criticizing people. Which is it?
You're also wrong about the feedback issue. Any map posted here, including mine, is a map maker begging for feedback (that he usually never gets.) it's like pulling teeth to get enough gameplay AND useful feedback. Incidentally "I like it (or not)" is not useful feedback.
______
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
Wolverine , this is a great map . Everyone on the Beer_Me Server loves it.
Don't let anyone tell you different , The people have spoken and the map is regarded highly by everyone who actually plays Usermade maps !
Perhaps the difference of opinion is due to the fact that most of us are not interested in comp maps we play for fun , stress release at the end of the day and the conversation with other players.
Like I said before, everyone has an editor so everyone should feel free to make the type of map that you enjoy.
I get Doba's point that some maps just won't work for competitive play, period. However, not every UMM is an open field or some other form of a wide open map. I personally do not like open maps all too much (I'll play them if I have to, but they've always been my least favorite game type). So if I'm making a map, I'm making something that's more CQB. That doesn't mean that there will never be long distance sight lines, but that's also why I'd then try to limit snipers and other zoomed optics or put in fog.
In any sense, what do you think the purpose of each mapper posting their map in this part of the forum is? Not like this is the most populated place in the world where people will shower us with praise for our awesome mapping skills.
Whenever I put a map out on this forum, I never see the subscriber count go up too much. So I certainly know that server operators aren't even checking this forum to see what maps are being put out. My hope is always to get feedback, but typically I know that won't even happen. If you throw out screen shots, you may get a "Looks great" comment here and there, but rarely anything worthwhile. The only people checking this forum on a regular basis are other mappers and we're typically mapping more than playing. I honestly haven't even played the game in quite some time.
You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
Admit it. Either you're AFRAID of the editors little buttons or you just feel good criticizing people. Which is it?
Not sure how you can be afraid of it.. I just dont know how to use either editor, and I find the basic useless as nothing decent will come out of that thing.. Ive tried them and its frustrating, thats why I rather help someone that knows what theyre doing.. I dont doubt anyone map making skills.. I see everyone here is capable of making a decent map.. they just lack the experience of what makes a good map..
You see when you play "just for fun" as Roach says, is perfectly fine however for these people most maps will do.. hence why most maps make their rotation.. doesnt make many technically good, but you can still kill and have fun on them.
We just have different goals bud , we play for fun and you like comp. There is room for everyone.
Just because a map is not designed for comp doesn't mean that its not a good map.
As far as using the editor , its just one of those things you have to learn if you choose .
PS: All maps are welcome in our rotation , we play them and if they are liked by the general populous then we keep them, but more importantly we try to form a community that can help others make maps . Feed back from the people that are playing them is invaluable , seems to work well for everyone so far.
There is nothing wrong with people on your server having fun on just about any map, however although you may think the umm community is a large part, its really not. I mean there are only a couple servers running UMM and usually if full, they're full of "regulars"... Yesterday I was interested in finding a umm server including EU and there were none running atm.
One of the main reasons why people dont play this game is because of the poor maps, and Im thinking large scale, helping the game move forward with solid map design, not because they help support one or two server that run umm's.... and hearing "these maps dont suck, because theyre fun" isnt going to solve the main issue at hand.
I personally play comp because it's fun. Map makers make maps because they enjoy it (or at least I hope so), we support comp because it's what is fun for us. Asking us to learn to make a map is something we could certainly do, but if it's not enjoyable then it's defeating the purpose of a video game. It's not something that I personally would find enjoyable and is akin to asking map makers to start playing competitively. With that said, I'm likely the biggest advocate of UMMs on our team. I'm constantly subscribing to maps, running around, seeing if they would work for comp, and lightly annoying the team about it.
It has a lot to do with the AAPG UMM infrastructure. I'd love to play some of the maps I see potential in on the Beer me server. But because of my inability to simply play that one subscribed map instead of having to download their entire collection, that's simply not going to happen.
Now that we have an extra server, i'll likely use one as a test bed for potential comp UMMs. Max 2-3 maps at a time. Doba, I know we've discussed this in the past, but i'll be sure to invite you and your guys, keep an eye out for the server.
NOTICE: I [KEEBLER750] WANT TO MAKE GREAT, PLAYABLE MAPS AND DON'T KNOW HOW!
(Disclaimer for the language impaired: The above statement actually refers to ME and my wish for knowledge. It is not sly, metaphorical, passive aggressive or sarcastic. It in no way alludes to any other subject.)
______
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
I never said I want to make maps.. I'd be willing to help map makers make a decent map.. however although you claim help is wanted.. your sarcasm says otherwise
Do you mean where I point out that your map and gameplay knowledge is desperately needed by map makers.......that sarcasm?
Here's some sarcasm for you: we're both Canadian. Do you speak the same language as me, because I swear it doesn't matter what I type? Remember....I'm not responsible for what you understand, only what I say.
I WANT (and have received from some great guys) the kinds of feedback and constructive criticism that make my maps better. ALL map makers want this. Frankly, I believe someone like you who understands what you do, would make the best map maker!
How is that sarcastic?
______
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
We don't doubt of anyone capability of building a solid map, but when it comes to map design for competition, there is lack of talent.
I wouldn't call it lack of talent, but more "lack of interest". You see there is not enough there for LD's to waste their time with comp and bdx TBH. I don't thing anyone wants to make a map that don't get play because there isn't a community for it. And no, 7 or 8 guys being interested is not a community. As I stated befor, I took maps the you guys weren't happy and made them solid for comp play. Yes, it was a team effort between you guys and my self. Colts did a great job on giving me feedback on what needed to be done. But if you remember in the beginning, even you guys didn't agree on everything. I get post from few different people telling different changes. And that's why I told colts to take the lead, so we don't go back and forth with changes. As I said earlier I'm still here if you guys need help, not bashing anyone. All I can tell you, it's hard getting emails and pms from comp players daily telling me not to listen to you guys and not to waste my time for the 3 or 4 clans that are in NA scene. They wouldn't even waste their time using these maps. Only official maps by the Devs would be used.
So do LD's stay motivated, to make maps for the comp community, when they can't even come to an agreement.
post some overheads of scenarios / comp playable maps ,if you want empty alleys , no foliage etc etc thats easy to do then its the detail that takes time , getting a sunset to look good , waterfalls that look real enough ,that's what takes time ,
you lose the interest as soon as you realize you dont have the talent.. I tried.. I failed.. look how much time it takes you, imagine how much time it would take us. There are guys already out there making maps.. why not make them together
@ Keebler, do you take your car to someone that has no idea what theyre doing and say make it work? no you take it to a mechanic thats skilled in the field.. could that random joe learn .. sure
I honestly don't even know how many NA and EU teams there are in comp these days, but if you people want to get some excitement around UMMs, why not have a UMM exclusive tournament? At least then people will feel like their map will get some play at a high level. Of course it's a matter of finding the right maps that will fit a competitive match, but it's a good start.
I think one of the better ways to get good maps into the game is to force the Devs hands. If you get a group of top notch maps that are in heavy use in the competitive scene, maybe the Devs will just add them in rather than even holding a contest for them.
Also, in terms of fun vs. comp. I'd say that a top notch comp map will be fun in public play no matter what. I've never heard of a map that's widely considered a great competitive map that people don't like to play in public games. The main trick is having the right size so that competitive matches flow well while also allowing for larger public games. It's not easy to balance. That's also why a lot of maps don't work for comp. Most people are making maps for 12v12 rather than something like 8v8.
You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
Doba....I'm telling you....placing basic objects in a map in mock-up form is really easy and you'd be great at it because you'd know WHERE to put the stuff.
The rest comes from polish and detail work that others can help with. Heck, I still have NO CLUE how to do most stuff AND.....and.....I have no clue about gameplay.
So, you're not the backyard mechanic, you're the EXPERT. Do I make myself clear???
I want what you want, but instead of constructivity, you only kick people in the shins instead of actually moving toward your (our) goal.
______
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
Doba you clearly have no idea what goes on in our server or the community that plays there.
Every statement you make is to support comp and in your eyes there is no other way so , why not just say nothing you have no valuable input and all you seek is comp.
If your not going to build a comp map or any map for that matter , leave the rest of us alone and let us enjoy the game. You have no desire to make maps together with anyone , you just want us to do all the work and make the maps to suit you. I think you miss the point . All of us play and build maps and we enjoy the editor the conversations and the learning as we go.
Maybe you should direct your comments to the Devs, if you are such an expert on what is a good map then I'm sure they would love to hear what you have to say , we quite frankly , could care less what you say.
you lose the interest as soon as you realize you dont have the talent.. I tried.. I failed.. look how much time it takes you, imagine how much time it would take us. There are guys already out there making maps.. why not make them together
@ Keebler, do you take your car to someone that has no idea what theyre doing and say make it work? no you take it to a mechanic thats skilled in the field.. could that random joe learn .. sure
That's an excuse, Doba. You claim you have talent, so you should be motivate to learn it and make it. Udk is one of the easiest tool to learn. Start with the basics and I can help you with the rest. [TOS Violation] let me know what's holding you up, and I'll show you how to get through it.
I can set up class for you comp guys to learn to use the editor, if you'd like.
Doba, as noobie mapmaker i think that your ideas are purely 'nonsense'. I'm a 'pub' player that one time was also a 'comp' player; probably i'm too old for new trends but this idea of 'comp' map is really annoying and more or less inexplicable; furthermore you always speak about 'comp' community .... never seen this community sorry!!!! I play more or less in some servers that are making a great job for us mapmakers, (NIW,Beer_me, etc.) helping us to improve the gameplay and to fix the bugs. But there are not 'comp' servers that play UMMs maps. Why?? Pls dont lie abut absence of 'comp' UMMs, that's a short and surely not complete list of good and not large maps:
- refinery c4
- insurgency ambush
- construction warfare
- rusneyev
- supply base
- stanica29
- abandoned
- worksite
AA2 had 'comp' maps? NO!! Cod4 had comp maps?? NO!! CS has comp maps?? NO!! All games have maps but the problem is the actual trend that seems that comp players need maps like 'beedroom without foliage, sounds, terrain, plaster and so on'. The entire concept of 'comp' maps could be a big misundertanding...a map should be well playable and not large but you cannot pretend that a mapmaker loses his time only for the 'comp' idea....a mapmaker would see his map played by all players, pub and comp, imho clearly.
And the absence of feedbacks from 'comp' players about the UMMs is quite absolute .... the only msg i can read is 'not good for comp'...sorry but if the communications from you comp guys is always like this there will be no way.....
I cannot say that we arent working together.
The mapmaker community is a sworn heap of cool and really productive people.
Wolverine, Deltathunder, Kebbler, Lobo, Whiplash27, RedBaron64(ITA), UNISOL, EJtheK, FLOPS, eLiZ (Altan) and some more people also me are investing hours and hours of work of their lifetime.
We are working all together. I am new to this bunch of people and i am already feeling as a part of them.
There are some points and aims a mapmaker tries to goal on each of his/her maps:
*layout and story - i think that is one of the most important things
*nicely done graphics, effects making the map looking interesting - the illusion all is about illusion
*the FUN aspect - how much fun is the map, playing is for fun so that is one more keypoint i think
*the gimmicks - are there little details rewarding the players playing the
map once and once again, exploring the map for hours
*after all of this gameplay -the most difficult thing - is there a balance between the teams or are there some unfair things giving one team an advantage over the other team
The engine and the editor are the least problems. All is based on exercise.
Noone comes and makes great maps out of nothing.
I sent over 1 year to get an idea how to use CAD (i am studying engineering).
After this i dont say that i am an expert only a yound padawan
SO it was no problem for me to understand a bigger animation and cad tool like the unreal engine.
There is one thing, i want to say: I make maps for players and not only for comp.
they should be played, the players should have fun and my heart is happy.
Hope i do not get into a fight with someone or that i have forfeit with someone.
Gz your Modtools
@DOBA if you want to make maps, get in touch with me.
Perhaps it will be possible to bring the things together.
Comments
Admit it. Either you're AFRAID of the editors little buttons or you just feel good criticizing people. Which is it?
You're also wrong about the feedback issue. Any map posted here, including mine, is a map maker begging for feedback (that he usually never gets.) it's like pulling teeth to get enough gameplay AND useful feedback. Incidentally "I like it (or not)" is not useful feedback.
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
Don't let anyone tell you different , The people have spoken and the map is regarded highly by everyone who actually plays Usermade maps !
Perhaps the difference of opinion is due to the fact that most of us are not interested in comp maps we play for fun , stress release at the end of the day and the conversation with other players.
Like I said before, everyone has an editor so everyone should feel free to make the type of map that you enjoy.
In any sense, what do you think the purpose of each mapper posting their map in this part of the forum is? Not like this is the most populated place in the world where people will shower us with praise for our awesome mapping skills.
Whenever I put a map out on this forum, I never see the subscriber count go up too much. So I certainly know that server operators aren't even checking this forum to see what maps are being put out. My hope is always to get feedback, but typically I know that won't even happen. If you throw out screen shots, you may get a "Looks great" comment here and there, but rarely anything worthwhile. The only people checking this forum on a regular basis are other mappers and we're typically mapping more than playing. I honestly haven't even played the game in quite some time.
Not sure how you can be afraid of it.. I just dont know how to use either editor, and I find the basic useless as nothing decent will come out of that thing.. Ive tried them and its frustrating, thats why I rather help someone that knows what theyre doing.. I dont doubt anyone map making skills.. I see everyone here is capable of making a decent map.. they just lack the experience of what makes a good map..
You see when you play "just for fun" as Roach says, is perfectly fine however for these people most maps will do.. hence why most maps make their rotation.. doesnt make many technically good, but you can still kill and have fun on them.
#Support Comp Mode
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
Just because a map is not designed for comp doesn't mean that its not a good map.
As far as using the editor , its just one of those things you have to learn if you choose .
PS: All maps are welcome in our rotation , we play them and if they are liked by the general populous then we keep them, but more importantly we try to form a community that can help others make maps . Feed back from the people that are playing them is invaluable , seems to work well for everyone so far.
One of the main reasons why people dont play this game is because of the poor maps, and Im thinking large scale, helping the game move forward with solid map design, not because they help support one or two server that run umm's.... and hearing "these maps dont suck, because theyre fun" isnt going to solve the main issue at hand.
#Support Comp Mode
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
It has a lot to do with the AAPG UMM infrastructure. I'd love to play some of the maps I see potential in on the Beer me server. But because of my inability to simply play that one subscribed map instead of having to download their entire collection, that's simply not going to happen.
Now that we have an extra server, i'll likely use one as a test bed for potential comp UMMs. Max 2-3 maps at a time. Doba, I know we've discussed this in the past, but i'll be sure to invite you and your guys, keep an eye out for the server.
Fragmovie 6 | iNv Discord
FGNL Season 1 Champions
FN Season 2 & 4 Champions
(Disclaimer for the language impaired: The above statement actually refers to ME and my wish for knowledge. It is not sly, metaphorical, passive aggressive or sarcastic. It in no way alludes to any other subject.)
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
#Support Comp Mode
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
Here's some sarcasm for you: we're both Canadian. Do you speak the same language as me, because I swear it doesn't matter what I type? Remember....I'm not responsible for what you understand, only what I say.
I WANT (and have received from some great guys) the kinds of feedback and constructive criticism that make my maps better. ALL map makers want this. Frankly, I believe someone like you who understands what you do, would make the best map maker!
How is that sarcastic?
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
I wouldn't call it lack of talent, but more "lack of interest". You see there is not enough there for LD's to waste their time with comp and bdx TBH. I don't thing anyone wants to make a map that don't get play because there isn't a community for it. And no, 7 or 8 guys being interested is not a community. As I stated befor, I took maps the you guys weren't happy and made them solid for comp play. Yes, it was a team effort between you guys and my self. Colts did a great job on giving me feedback on what needed to be done. But if you remember in the beginning, even you guys didn't agree on everything. I get post from few different people telling different changes. And that's why I told colts to take the lead, so we don't go back and forth with changes. As I said earlier I'm still here if you guys need help, not bashing anyone. All I can tell you, it's hard getting emails and pms from comp players daily telling me not to listen to you guys and not to waste my time for the 3 or 4 clans that are in NA scene. They wouldn't even waste their time using these maps. Only official maps by the Devs would be used.
So do LD's stay motivated, to make maps for the comp community, when they can't even come to an agreement.
So again lack of interest and not talent.
My Portfolio / Site
@ Keebler, do you take your car to someone that has no idea what theyre doing and say make it work? no you take it to a mechanic thats skilled in the field.. could that random joe learn .. sure
#Support Comp Mode
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
I think one of the better ways to get good maps into the game is to force the Devs hands. If you get a group of top notch maps that are in heavy use in the competitive scene, maybe the Devs will just add them in rather than even holding a contest for them.
Also, in terms of fun vs. comp. I'd say that a top notch comp map will be fun in public play no matter what. I've never heard of a map that's widely considered a great competitive map that people don't like to play in public games. The main trick is having the right size so that competitive matches flow well while also allowing for larger public games. It's not easy to balance. That's also why a lot of maps don't work for comp. Most people are making maps for 12v12 rather than something like 8v8.
The rest comes from polish and detail work that others can help with. Heck, I still have NO CLUE how to do most stuff AND.....and.....I have no clue about gameplay.
So, you're not the backyard mechanic, you're the EXPERT. Do I make myself clear???
I want what you want, but instead of constructivity, you only kick people in the shins instead of actually moving toward your (our) goal.
This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
Every statement you make is to support comp and in your eyes there is no other way so , why not just say nothing you have no valuable input and all you seek is comp.
If your not going to build a comp map or any map for that matter , leave the rest of us alone and let us enjoy the game. You have no desire to make maps together with anyone , you just want us to do all the work and make the maps to suit you. I think you miss the point . All of us play and build maps and we enjoy the editor the conversations and the learning as we go.
Maybe you should direct your comments to the Devs, if you are such an expert on what is a good map then I'm sure they would love to hear what you have to say , we quite frankly , could care less what you say.
That's an excuse, Doba. You claim you have talent, so you should be motivate to learn it and make it. Udk is one of the easiest tool to learn. Start with the basics and I can help you with the rest. [TOS Violation] let me know what's holding you up, and I'll show you how to get through it.
I can set up class for you comp guys to learn to use the editor, if you'd like.
My Portfolio / Site
- refinery c4
- insurgency ambush
- construction warfare
- rusneyev
- supply base
- stanica29
- abandoned
- worksite
AA2 had 'comp' maps? NO!! Cod4 had comp maps?? NO!! CS has comp maps?? NO!! All games have maps but the problem is the actual trend that seems that comp players need maps like 'beedroom without foliage, sounds, terrain, plaster and so on'. The entire concept of 'comp' maps could be a big misundertanding...a map should be well playable and not large but you cannot pretend that a mapmaker loses his time only for the 'comp' idea....a mapmaker would see his map played by all players, pub and comp, imho clearly.
And the absence of feedbacks from 'comp' players about the UMMs is quite absolute .... the only msg i can read is 'not good for comp'...sorry but if the communications from you comp guys is always like this there will be no way.....
The mapmaker community is a sworn heap of cool and really productive people.
Wolverine, Deltathunder, Kebbler, Lobo, Whiplash27, RedBaron64(ITA), UNISOL, EJtheK, FLOPS, eLiZ (Altan) and some more people also me are investing hours and hours of work of their lifetime.
We are working all together. I am new to this bunch of people and i am already feeling as a part of them.
There are some points and aims a mapmaker tries to goal on each of his/her maps:
*layout and story - i think that is one of the most important things
*nicely done graphics, effects making the map looking interesting - the illusion all is about illusion
*the FUN aspect - how much fun is the map, playing is for fun so that is one more keypoint i think
*the gimmicks - are there little details rewarding the players playing the
map once and once again, exploring the map for hours
*after all of this gameplay -the most difficult thing - is there a balance between the teams or are there some unfair things giving one team an advantage over the other team
The engine and the editor are the least problems. All is based on exercise.
Noone comes and makes great maps out of nothing.
I sent over 1 year to get an idea how to use CAD (i am studying engineering).
After this i dont say that i am an expert only a yound padawan
SO it was no problem for me to understand a bigger animation and cad tool like the unreal engine.
There is one thing, i want to say: I make maps for players and not only for comp.
they should be played, the players should have fun and my heart is happy.
Hope i do not get into a fight with someone or that i have forfeit with someone.
Gz your Modtools
@DOBA if you want to make maps, get in touch with me.
Perhaps it will be possible to bring the things together.