4-5s Fuse Nade

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Comments

  • ddra-ddra- Posts: 454Player
    It's really not a competitive change, you're really the only advocate for this change. Everyone else agrees lowering the damage/damage radius is enough.

    At the end, i'm not even worried about this awful change coming to fruition, devs have not made any sort of notion that they will be removing cooking...

    Starting to sound like a broken recorder...
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  • ProceduralPolyMathProceduralPolyMath Posts: 96Player
    edited May 2015
    Most people would agree that the nades are a little OP, especially since it is impossible to avoid when well cooked. I'm thinking if the fuse is made with a variance of 1s for a time between 4-5s might make it a little more fair and realistic.

    Horrible idea. This game certainly doesn't need any more random.

    Well I think it needs a slight random lenght throw. I could pin point grenades in AA2 through holes onto the other side of the map in Urban Assault. Quite silly. That extreme consistency should be broken by a little random throw length. I don't even speak of direction/cone. Just not consistent length and it's enough to brake exploits.

    As for fuse times. Follow the real world model. Do real grenades penalize people who gamble with overcooking grenades? Then why not penalize them in game to? It's reasonable. If not then, leave the fuse alone.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Most people would agree that the nades are a little OP, especially since it is impossible to avoid when well cooked. I'm thinking if the fuse is made with a variance of 1s for a time between 4-5s might make it a little more fair and realistic.

    Horrible idea. This game certainly doesn't need any more random.

    Well I think it needs a slight random grenade throw. I could pin point grenades in AA2 through holes onto the other side of the map in Urban Assault. Quite silly. That extreme consistency should be broken by a little random throw length. I don't even speak of direction/cone. Just not consistent length.

    As for fuse times. Follow the real world model. Do real grenades penalize people that overextend the cooking. Then why not penalize them in game to? If not leave them alone.

    Yes please. Why reward people for figuring out some useful nades? Let's make it completely random so you don't even have to bother about how you throw your nades anymore. What's next, flashes slipping out of your hand flashing yourself?
  • ProceduralPolyMathProceduralPolyMath Posts: 96Player
    edited May 2015
    cK^KILL@ wrote: »
    Yes please. Why reward people for figuring out some useful nades? Let's make it completely random so you don't even have to bother about how you throw your nades anymore. What's next, flashes slipping out of your hand flashing yourself?

    Yes, lets also make overextended arguments that have nothing to do with the original argument so through slyness we can make a point across.

    Exploits are not a good thing and have nothing to do with the so called skill.
    I know I had my time figuring grenade exploits out, but I'm the first one to admit that it's stupid and introduces wildcard things to the game that are abused and disrupt it.

    "Crap I better not stay in this secure position because a guy from the other side of the map watched a video where they teach how to put a grenade in here"

    Really charming.

    Take a risk... You guys sound like lawyers and finance people with love for loopholes and schemes.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited May 2015
    cK^KILL@ wrote: »
    Yes please. Why reward people for figuring out some useful nades? Let's make it completely random so you don't even have to bother about how you throw your nades anymore. What's next, flashes slipping out of your hand flashing yourself?

    Yes, lets also make overextended arguments that have nothing to do with the original argument so through slyness we can make a point across.

    Exploits are not a good thing and have nothing to do with the so called skill.
    I know I had my time figuring grenade exploits out, but I'm the first one to admit that it's stupid and introduces wildcard things to the game that are abused and disrupt it.

    "Crap I better not stay in this secure position because a guy from the other side of the map watched a video where they teach how to put a grenade in here"

    Really charming.

    Take a risk... You guys sound like lawyers and finance people with love for loopholes and schemes.

    This is a ridiculous argument. Learning how to throw grenades from one area to another is completely different from an exploit.

    There's no "exploit" in learning grenade placement on a map. Learning good grenade placement is one of the clearest examples of skill progression and development in the game. Players put in time, practice throws, and develop mastery over time. How much clearer can a demonstration of learned skill get?

    The map designers put in random skylights and open ceilings for a reason: to allow grenades and so on. Same goes for throwing over buildings, or through incomplete walls. Many throws are intended to be found with time and practice.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    edited May 2015
    cK^KILL@ wrote: »
    Yes please. Why reward people for figuring out some useful nades? Let's make it completely random so you don't even have to bother about how you throw your nades anymore. What's next, flashes slipping out of your hand flashing yourself?

    Yes, lets also make overextended arguments that have nothing to do with the original argument so through slyness we can make a point across.

    Exploits are not a good thing. If you like them it's up to you.

    What kind of exploits are you talking about? Do you really think it's smart to make the throw range random? Let's say we got some important spot on the map both teams want to control, both teams will rush there trying to nade the opponent to secure that spot. So some rounds the attackers will win, some rounds the defenders will win just because their nades happen to randomly fly further? So we are talking about implementing a mechanic you simply can't counter because it's completely random. What happens if there are objects around the spot you want to secure e.g. some boxes. You'd depend on luck to be able to nade above those boxes because we got this sick completely random nade mechanic where for some reason your soldier would lose some strengh in his arm and thus won't be able to throw his grenade as far as he usually does.

    Great game design, I'm sure if someone let you, you'd create the best FPS in gaming history. Sorry but I just can't take these suggestions seriously.
  • ProceduralPolyMathProceduralPolyMath Posts: 96Player
    edited May 2015
    cK^KILL@ wrote: »
    Yes please. Why reward people for figuring out some useful nades? Let's make it completely random so you don't even have to bother about how you throw your nades anymore. What's next, flashes slipping out of your hand flashing yourself?

    Yes, lets also make overextended arguments that have nothing to do with the original argument so through slyness we can make a point across.

    Exploits are not a good thing and have nothing to do with the so called skill.
    I know I had my time figuring grenade exploits out, but I'm the first one to admit that it's stupid and introduces wildcard things to the game that are abused and disrupt it.

    "Crap I better not stay in this secure position because a guy from the other side of the map watched a video where they teach how to put a grenade in here"

    Really charming.

    Take a risk... You guys sound like lawyers and finance people with love for loopholes and schemes.

    This is a ridiculous argument. Learning how to throw grenades from one area to another is completely different from an exploit.

    There's no "exploit" in learning grenade placement on a map. Learning good grenade placement is one of the clearest examples of skill progression and development in the game. Players put in time, practice throws, and develop mastery over time. How much clearer can a demonstration of learned skill get?

    The map designers put in random skylights and open ceilings for a reason: to allow grenades and so on. Same goes for throwing over buildings, or through incomplete walls. Many throws are intended to be found with time and practice.

    Ridiculous is expecting to throw a grenade across the map consistently into a small hole you're not even seeing because you follow some texture landmarks that grant you that.

    I repeat, I used to practice to put grenades across the map inside West and East objective in Urban Assault and from inside West over the Charlie Central wall. It's ridiculous!

    If the hole is big enough a little randomness in the toss length, won't make a difference. I'm talking about about 20 cm in a 15 meter throw. Would be enough to clean out some overly consistent tosses, while not break the overall grasp of how far you can throw a grenade.

    To practice grenade paths it's one thing to have them being consistent to the inch it's another.

    I guess some still have ammunition from the lost fights over weapon recoil and cone.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,607Beta Tester
    I think Animatics has stumbled across what's really wrong with grenades. Why should my arm be as accurate as a gun?

    The rest of you are right that it'd be a game changer though. His point negates all of the other discussions about nades.

    I personally think throwing a nade accurately or cooking it right, or doing an airburst is a pretty cool skill. However, I think a lot of people have gotten used to a certain way of playing and are stuck in their Competitive ways no differently than the older AA2 'gentlemen.'

    Why shouldn't a thrown grenade have a margin of error, other than "I don't like it?"
    ______

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  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 643Player
    I think that question has already been answered. More random=less skill. That sums it up pretty well.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited May 2015
    Make them random and all of a sudden:
    • flashes bouncing back at you off of doorframes
    • throws that previously required a minimum of skill (eg, throwing between an obstacle on left and an obstacle on right) will no longer work... ever. (Ex: lower siege from timber to north)
    • throws through partially completed walls, or partially completed ceilings -- anywhere we can see the framing -- would be completely random. Either accomplish your goal, or kill yourself

    It's taking an area that's actually been able to be about player knowledge and skill and turn it into a roulette wheel.

    Nobody spends hours and hours offline practicing recoil control in this game. Why? The random element in the recoil pattern makes the potential benefit minimal.

    People do spend hours looking for and practicing odd grenades. Why? Cool throws are difficult to find and master, but it can be done.

    Creating a random cone on grenades compresses the skill gap even further than it already has been and lowers the skill ceiling. This is a change that would get MASSIVE push-back. I just can't emphasize that enough.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,607Beta Tester
    I've been in a lot of competitive environments in my 50 years. In my opinion, a champion is born in the conquering of adversity (randomness) not in the slavish mastery of turning variables into constants.

    This colors my entire perspective on what you guys say!

    Ever been in a race in which you had to work your way through slower traffic? Pure random mayhem, and yet....it can be conquered!
    ______

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  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Keebler750 wrote: »
    I've been in a lot of competitive environments in my 50 years. In my opinion, a champion is born in the conquering of adversity (randomness) not in the slavish mastery of turning variables into constants.

    This colors my entire perspective on what you guys say!

    Ever been in a race in which you had to work your way through slower traffic? Pure random mayhem, and yet....it can be conquered!

    Random can be good or bad.

    Poker random: good. You play enough hands and knowing the math will work in your favor. 30% chance of winning? Calculate your expected value based on that and play appropriately. Top players have this knowledge in their bag of tricks and it works in their favor.

    Roulette random: bad. It's uncontrollable. You can't spin the wheel enough times and do any better by being a "more experienced" roulette player.



    Make grenades random and there's no adversity there to conquer with many throws; you'll either get lucky and they work or unlucky and they don't. Coin-flippy random is bad. Controllable random is ... case by case IMO.

    With gunfire and random recoil effects, we're firing many times and it's more like we're firing a distribution of bullets. The randomness smooths itself out to an extent and the result becomes predictable. That's fine.

    With grenades, we're talking about a single discrete event that can, by that single outcome alone, decide who wins an engagement. That's bad.
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited May 2015
    here's one thing the devs should take a look at... the distance you can throw a nade from prone position should be considerably less than from a standing position. its common sense.
    -
    you either nerf the throw distance from prone, or force the player into the crouch position if attempting to throw from prone.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,607Beta Tester
    edited May 2015
    There are two things that really turn my crank in a competitive environment - outthinking my opponent, and making a huge save by handling some sudden Ooops! really well. I love that! There is no greater feeling than being totally done for, and somehow digging really deep and pulling it off. :)

    I'm not afraid of random. I welcome it! It's an opportunity for me to convert, to make something good out of something that isn't, or finding a way to use that against my opponent.

    If grenades weren't perfectly accurate, it could add to the decision making gameplay. Variation....which is what random is, doesn't have to be a dirty word.

    I think it's true that grenades being thrown through the tiniest openings and clearances exactly the same arc over and over is predictable and boring and not even close to realistic.

    ...and I love being accurate with nades. I'm just not afraid of random.
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  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    No with cooking you can shorten the fuse to instant death. Without it you will always have a 3 to 4 second fuse and you have to use much more skill and judgement to throw a grenade.

    Currently the only skill to cooking grenades is deciding if you should throw the grenade or not. Nothing skill based on actually doing it. That is what is wrong with cooking grenades.

    Without cooking you have both the need to decide if you should throw it and a skill/judgement on how you will throw it to kill.

    This is a competitive change....

    I understand you're trying to prove a valid point. But there is to some degree, skill involved in timing out throws so that they explode at the perfect time. Factually, there involves a certain level of understanding to be able to do that effectively and consistently. It is what it is, don't downplay it to "No skill".
    -
    Further, removing the cook doesn't solve the problem. You'll still have super-nades landing right at your feet with no forewarning what-so-ever. My problem with grenades is that they make no noise. There is no way to counter grenades, unless you get lucky and someone didint cook it well enough. There needs to be some sound que. A click of the pin on releasing the spoon and a "Frag Out!!" (unless you're in tactical mode). These would be good solutions to make the game better while also giving players a little taste of the past.
    -
    Like i have said, i don't necessarily disagree with removing cooking. But it doesn't solve the problems that we have been trying to address with grenades.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Compare to a game like Chess. My knights don't sometimes move 1+3 or 1+1 instead of 1+2. I don't say "My queen wants to move to approximately F3. Let me know if she goes to a neighboring square instead."

    With precise weapon and projectile mechanics, the gameplay is more about out-positioning your opponent and which team makes the right calls at the right times.

    Handling the "Ooop!" moments becomes more about "The opponents did something different than we expected! Oops, we read that situation wrong! How do we alter our strategy to adapt?"

    I want to fight the other team. I don't want to fight the game for understanding or execution of what I'm trying to accomplish.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,607Beta Tester
    Yes, BC I understand what you're saying on that level.

    I'm just saying that real life is messy and fighting to overcome some difficulty can be quite dramatic. I saw a guy running a motorcycle race on a track that he maxed out at over 120mph with the left handlebar MISSING due to a bump with another rider. Can you imagine the suspense of that race? Can you imagine the feeling of pulling that one off?!! :open_mouth:

    Some people like layers, and some people like more predictability. I really wish we'd quit fighting to be right and appreciate other perspectives around here. (And I'm not implying YOU, per se...)
    ______

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  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Right, I hear you. For me, the drama comes from things like a 1v3 or 1v4 clutch, or a player chaining a few kills together with AMAZING aim and reactions. In a team game with as much hidden information as any FPS has, there's already a huge amount of uncertainty flying around. This is also where I was concerned about sound in the opt-in, for example: the HDR effects were greatly increasing the amount of uncertainty about what was happening on the map to a level where I felt it was dramatically impacting the "team vs team" layer of the game.

    I feel the same way about some game situations as in your example from racing. The equivalent of missing a handlebar? Tanking a nade early in a round and going down to 1 hp. The equivalent of going on to win that race? Killing the entire enemy team, after all your mates have died... without taking a single point of damage. (I have a video I can link for the curious, courtesy of Shroud. I don't feel like tempting the ToS Violation Gods with it.)

    We both totally agree on a lot of points -- out-thinking opponents and recovering from mistakes are huge rushes and add to the game. I just want to bring that team vs team element to the forefront and remove the curtains that, for me at least, could obscure that.
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