4-5s Fuse Nade

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  • [eSC]General.Jung[eSC]General.Jung Posts: 144Player
    Assuming that the question is serious. I think we should try it more serious to understand the point of view of our fellow discussant. That would be much more productive for a game we pretend to like. So for me its the way how many people use to act and communicate. I'm just someone who is trying not to buckle because of that.
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    I just don't want to sit here in a few months; realizing that there are no more smokes, weak grenades and only rushers left in the AA series; and saying to my self I didn't try to argued against those changes.
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    SO you want lots of smoke.. OP nades, and a slow paced game.

    we still like smoke, we dont want OP nades, and we want a skilled game.. skill doesnt mean sitting in a bush wasting 1-2 minutes of a 4 min round.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    - avoid an information leak about your position
    - care about hotspots that getting spamed regularly
    - dont do stupid pushes
    - take use of an appropriate safe distance
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    Even those few rules should prevent your team from getting killed that often. Reducing the radius will be just a other step into a more rushing AA:PG.

    All of this is generally applicable, nothing here is particular to grenades. The same rules would apply with weaker grenades as well. It goes without saying that you shouldn't stand where you expect a grenade to be thrown and you shouldn't recklessly give away your position.

    That said, you have to push eventually; "smart" pushes are still vulnerable to high-power grenades. When it's time to make a push, the enemies *will* find out it's coming and grenades are an overly effective counter. "Hot spots" are usually hot spots because they're choke points; pushes HAVE to come through them. Many maps (I'd go so far as to say "any good map") has close-quarters elements where there's no such thing as "appropriate safe distance" when making a push.

    Finally, grenades with a smaller radius would still be a significant danger and effective deterrent. Weaker grenades wouldn't suddenly cause everybody to throw caution to the wind and ignore them.
  • [eSC]General.Jung[eSC]General.Jung Posts: 144Player
    Futhermore I don't like absolutism, sitting in bush for a minute can be as skilled as any rushing tactics. Both can be done skilled and both can be done unskilled.
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    Many players just thinking his own way of play-style is the most skilled. That is not too dissimilar like the discussion that everybody who kills me is a cheater, knowing that its often meant as joke. Its just a general problem in the gaming-scene or society in general.
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    sitting in bush for a minute can be as skilled as any rushing tactics.

    not sure if serious.. if so Im afraid we can no longer be friends :dizzy:
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    If someone wants to sit in a bush all round on defense, then go ahead. As long as you're defending something useful. If someone wants to sit in a bush on assault, then I question what that person is doing to help the team advance.
  • [eSC]General.Jung[eSC]General.Jung Posts: 144Player
    edited May 2015
    Please keep note about the sentence I put in afterwards: Both can be done skilled and both can be done unskilled. So sitting in a bush far away from any enemy, object or without the assumption that someone is coming is such a unskilled camping. But the scoring system or the gamemode like when being on assault is sanctioning that anyways. And I think, you have to admit that there are many rushers that doing it also very unskilled.
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    Futhermore I never said, that there isn't something to do about grenades, although if I think there are much more important things to do. But if, I would do it by delaying the throwing mechanism. So I always prefer to enforce more serious contemplation before doing something, whether it's a camp, push, throwing a grenade or deploying a weapon.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    If you're in a bush for an entire minute, I really question either your positioning or the server's round timer. That's a really long time to be sitting still in a modern FPS.

    Personally, I find "concealment" as a game strategy to be relatively anti-competitive in nature. It's playing on the inability of you to be seen by the enemy -- if he could actually see you, you're going to lose the fight because bushes offer literally zero cover and smart opponents aren't going to choose to fully expose themselves in an area that hasn't been cleared.

    Other games that aim for a strong competitive userbase regularly will patch "concealment" options out of maps. One good recent example is Valve removing a particle effect on Dust2 Long A because players could crouch behind it and blend into the wall too well.

    Compare bushes to nooks & crannies on maps -- things like hiding behind a crate, for example. In that case, an attacking player is either rewarded for thoroughly checking their corners or punished for lazily running past. The defender is gambling on whether the attacker will check the spot. Bush-camping dramatically shifts the balance there in favor of the defender by hiding their body *even if* the attacker looks there.

    Nope, sitting in bushes isn't a high-skill game mechanic regardless of who's doing it, where, and when.

    If you want high-skill lurking as a player option, replace bushes with hard cover where somebody checking the spot is actually going to be able to detect the enemy player.



    ... and back to the OP, grenades.
  • frankoffrankof Posts: 1,077Moderator
    My take on nades, they are off scale, damage radius is about right in relation to RL, but in a game where a 35m fire fight is considered medium range its far to big.
  • [eSC]General.Jung[eSC]General.Jung Posts: 144Player
    edited May 2015
    frankof wrote: »
    My take on nades, they are off scale, damage radius is about right in relation to RL, but in a game where a 35m fire fight is considered medium range its far to big.
    Maybe a serversided variable to reduce the effectiveness could be an option. So server owners with all those small maps, or even server owners that just don't like it, would be able to reduce it. But I think there should be only a boolean like the one for team damage bReduceFriendlyFire, otherwise there will be too much confusing even it would be visible in the server browser.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    The core game mechanics shouldn't become server-side variables. By core game mechanics, I mean things like how players move, how guns behave, how player interaction with objects and the world works...

    Those are some fundamental things where players should be able to know what to expect when joining a server. Players going from one server to another shouldn't be trying to learn a new recoil pattern or guess how strong grenades are.

    Heck, I think there are too many server options already.

    I think there can be a place for limited changes to some core mechanics -- I'm thinking of, for example, a UMM where there was a "disable accuracy cone" option for aim training -- but that's very different from changing core mechanics for a live server.
  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    sitting in bush for a minute can be as skilled as any rushing tactics.

    LOL there is no skill at all sitting in a bush that makes you INVISIBLE!. And there is no such thing as RUSHING Tactics.
    I just don't want to sit here in a few months; realizing that there are no more smokes, weak grenades and only rushers left in the AA series; and saying to my self I didn't try to argued against those changes.

    Nobody wants no smokes. Nobody is asking for weak grenades, and RUSHING is not something people to do in matches. So those same people you play in pubs with that rush all over. Go watch how they play when they are taking the game seriously and playing for real in a match. You will see a huge difference. Secondly go compared aapg nades to any other major FPS title out there atm. For example : Battlefield 4, CSGO, COD, any other FPS you can think of go see how their nade radius is. Its a lot smaller than AAPG way smaller and Grenades are not weak on those games.

  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    edited May 2015
    frankof wrote: »
    My take on nades, they are off scale, damage radius is about right in relation to RL, but in a game where a 35m fire fight is considered medium range its far to big.

    This is a great point. In this game 35m is considered a decent distance away. In real life it's not really that far. If everything else in game needs to be scaled down then so does the distance of a grenade's damage/kill radius.

    I think overall most people could agree that the damage and kill radius needs to be dropped quite a bit. I think most people also agree that the AA2 style "tells" of when a grenade are coming should also be added. I think the only real point of conflict in this thread should be over to cook or not to cook.
  • [eSC]General.Jung[eSC]General.Jung Posts: 144Player
    I can imagine so many situations, where camping in a bush or a tree that makes you hardly visible is the best option. On the other hand pushes can be done with tactics and without.
  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    It's not nonsense at all.... try games that are competitive games and you will see the difference. Cooking grenades is a low skilled game mechanic that only takes a med skilled player to master.
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    Currently we have the call of duty pub way when we should have the csgo or cod4 promod way. Which one of these is 2 competitive games and the other for MOD EDIT
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    A non cooking grenade option should be a server setting because if some of these so called "comp" players do not understand it when they should, trailer trash Jeffery certainly won't.

    Fun fact. I linked the last thread we had about cooking grenades to some old Cod4 promod players i used to play with and they all laughed at the comp guys on here for saying how skilled grenade cooking is. I can't type what they called you :D

    A couple things. "Pro" mod had a grenade indicator. (lol) and also the grenade fuse in COD4 is 3.5 seconds compared to the 6 seconds in AAPG.
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    If cooking is removed the grenades would also have to have a shorter fuse (no real room for debate there). You cant have a 6 second fuse with no cook, you would have to throw Jeremy Lin jump shots to get anything to explode at the proper time. That being said, if cook time was removed and the fuse was shortened. You would be left with the same problems. Though maybe some people would struggle to learn how to throw nades so they blow up at the proper time (I guess that takes skill?)
  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 645Player
    AAPG nade fuses are four seconds. I think adding grenade pin, spoon, throw sounds and reducing the radius are both better changes to make than eliminating cooking altogether.
  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    edited May 2015
    AAPG nade fuses are four seconds. I think adding grenade pin, spoon, throw sounds and reducing the radius are both better changes to make than eliminating cooking altogether.

    Go get your calculator and count hbk.
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    Adding sounds and reducing radius are also other GREAT solutions
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    EDIT its closer to 5 seconds
  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    edited May 2015
    It's 4 seconds from when the spoon is actually released until it goes boom.
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    It's about 5 seconds. Devs have confirmed this in numerous places.
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