Mastering Recoil on M4

Hello,

I am currently in the process of mastering the recoil on the M4 and it appears the recoil is not consistent. As if there is a Random Variable in there. From Round to Round it is consistent, but as a new map loads, the recoil will then slightly be different the map before. Even from shoot house, to explore, to load a different server the recoil is ALWAYS just slightly different. Why is there a variable in recoil? Recoil on ANY gun in real life is a set amount. And over time that recoil can be felt out and mastered if your strong enough. But this game, the recoil amount changes from map to map/ server to server.

If you ever wonder why one map you do really good, then the next map you do nothing but die and cant land a bullet. That's because your recoil is not the same as the map before. With this in the game, its like the luck of the draw. The players that get the lower random number get less recoil while others get a higher random number and cant hit the side of a barn. This takes ALL skill out of it and turns this completely into a game of luck! Get Rid of random Variable in recoil, this does NOT exist in real life!

I think this when players say they have "Rubber bullets"
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Comments

  • [WC]M4CC4[WC]M4CC4 Posts: 5Player
    Got any proof?
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    edited October 2015
    I think in an 'online' mulitplayer game where there is a damage model (head, arms, legs etc..) coupled with that recoil and connection quality between people, you always have potential for feeling rubber bullet syndrome.

    Don't ever blame yourself dude, always blame the game.
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  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,621Beta Tester
    First of all, I disagree that real life bullets don't go to random places. They ALWAYS have a degree of random due to the amount of variables at play. Heck, my rifle zeros differently when prone, kneeling and standing!

    Secondly, recoil only matters if you're shooting on full auto at distance. Single shots go where you point them, and full auto should only be used up close...as I'm sure you know.

    Finally, I have seen nothing that suggests it is different from round to round. There is most definitely a variable from bullet to bullet to combat the macros. If I die, it's because someone got the jump on me, not because my gun sucks.
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  • Dct.F|LeventeDct.F|Levente Posts: 624Beta Tester
    edited October 2015
    The 'real life' arguments does not make sense at all. There are so many factors in any real life event (be it the recoil or dropping a glass bottle on the floor) that we have to say: some things are random in real life. But if you still don't believe in random events, my final word is: quantum mechanics (e.g. quantum tunneling).

    And please, stop with the 'takes all skill out' whining. Even CSGO, the 'golden standard' of today's competitive shooters has random bullet deviation and stuff, but it is still has one of the biggest skillgaps of any game.

    As far as I know, there is a random part coded in the recoil, however is does not change map by map. Shooting mechanics didn't change significantly from the old Beta, and there is a Steam guide explaining how the recoil thing exactly worked in the Beta. There is no 'map variable' included. Plus making such a variable does not make sense from any kind of perspective.

    What can change from map to map is you PC's performance. Input lag, screen tearing and a lot of stuff can change map to map (based on FPS and other things), which can cause the exact same mouse movement register a bit differently - but I'm not really into this topic. Even if this is the case: this is an engine/PC related issue and the Devs have no control over it.

    If the effect you are talking about does really exist (which I really doubt) it is not significant and does not make a noticeable impact on the gameplay in my opinion.
    Theory and reality are not that different. In theory.
  • Moridin63Moridin63 Posts: 70Player
    I know I noticed wildly different recoil between guns in the same game during beta. Picking up a gun off an enemy could get you a gun with 2x as much or 2x less recoil than the one you spawned with, wasn't at all consistent though so not really something to try for.
  • [Prt_Dictator][Prt_Dictator] Posts: 275Player
    Calculating a recoil is a complex matter because a good recoil should have two things at once:
    - A consistent pattern to allow players to master it through training and muscle memory;
    - Enough variation to prevent the use of macros.
    .
    The problem in this game is that it went too far on the variation side, especially on the horizontal component.
    When you do things like this:
    CameraRecoilTarget.Yaw *= FRand();
    you are multiplying the base recoil with some random value meaning you can get full recoil, none or something in between. Obviously, you can't train your body to no recoil or full recoil, so it lowers the skill ceiling by making practice matter less (practice is not meaningless, but it matters less by adding RNG elements).
    .
    For example, shooting from same distance, just pressing the button down:
    xP6PMEt.png
    The one on the left is zigzagging all over the place while the one on the right is pretty consistent up-right movement. Randomly, one player gets to ride a bentley while the other gets a rodeo. That is the definition of low skill ceiling.
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    edited October 2015
    I just jumped in and fired both mounted and unmounted, sighted and unsighted. The variation wasn't as far off as your picture. They were all quite similar to each other. Kind of weird.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
  • -Ner0--Ner0- Posts: 1,576Player
    I've just tested m4 recoil in two different maps, Bridge and Hospital, couldtn't see any difference.
    HJbSf8Tt.jpg?2
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  • Yato^Yato^ Posts: 103Player
    Sounds like it is what OP stated, inconsistent. The game as a whole is full of it.
  • TrIn@dOr^SuRTrIn@dOr^SuR Posts: 215Player
    Play more, think less.
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    If you're going to test recoil bind fire to a keyboard button. Any small movement in your hand while holding mouse one can easily make it look worse than it is.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
  • Dct.F|LeventeDct.F|Levente Posts: 624Beta Tester
    edited October 2015
    I know I noticed wildly different recoil between guns in the same game during beta. Picking up a gun off an enemy could get you a gun with 2x as much or 2x less recoil than the one you spawned with, wasn't at all consistent though so not really something to try for.

    This difference is not random at all. In general (at least the AK-105 and AK-107) the enemy weapons have higher recoil but the randomness of the recoil is lower. For this reason you can you can shoot an AK very accurately when you have (close to) full health, but when the health penalty kicks in, it becomes a lot harder to control. I don't remember the exact way the health penalty works, but it surely amplifies the recoil and probably increases the randomness as well.
    Theory and reality are not that different. In theory.
  • IO_i_OIIO_i_OI Posts: 1,107Player
    So, the Devs need to make a "consistent" recoil pattern so you can just easily counter it with a macro?

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  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    No worries, they won't. This is supposed to be easy to play to attract the CoD kids. If you are looking for games requiring actual skill this is the wrong place.
  • [Prt_Dictator][Prt_Dictator] Posts: 275Player
    Whiplash27 wrote: »
    I just jumped in and fired both mounted and unmounted, sighted and unsighted. The variation wasn't as far off as your picture. They were all quite similar to each other. Kind of weird.
    That's what randomness means, and that's why its bad, results are dependent on luck.
    Whiplash27 wrote: »
    If you're going to test recoil bind fire to a keyboard button. Any small movement in your hand while holding mouse one can easily make it look worse than it is.
    I see no reason to doubt my screenshot since I provided the line of code that tells the recoil is randomized, but just to be clear here it is in video form this time with the keyboard.

    There is a few straight lines and a few of worm-like ones. The last clip is pretty clear with 2 almost linear patterns followed by 2 bs ones.
    IO_i_OI wrote: »
    So, the Devs need to make a "consistent" recoil pattern so you can just easily counter it with a macro?
    Being more consistent doesn't mean its always the same, you would have different values under the same general pattern. There are plenty of ways to make macros unreliable without turning the game into a dice roll. We already have penalties for firing, stamina and health that help in that regard. This black and white mentality makes the game go nowhere.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,621Beta Tester
    So, the recoil is DIFFICULT to control and master, and you say it has a low skill ceiling?

    Kindly read that sentence as many times as it takes to see the lack of logic. You want to MEMORIZE recoil and call yourself 'good?'

    A GOOD player will understand the capabilities of himself and his weapon and know when NOT to hold that button down for a full mag...

    Seriously, you 'pros' kill me sometimes! From where I stand, predictable is EASY. You actually want multiple rounds to go exactly the same place on full auto while you move your hand a certain way? Has it occurred to you that being able to quickly think, plan and compensate for variation is actually a skill you have that new players DON'T????

    :shakesHead:

    I've been suspicious for a long time that 'pros' want the game to have a certain kind of 'easy.' :(
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  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Keebler750 wrote: »
    So, the recoil is DIFFICULT to control and master, and you say it has a low skill ceiling?

    Kindly read that sentence as many times as it takes to see the lack of logic. You want to MEMORIZE recoil and call yourself 'good?'

    A GOOD player will understand the capabilities of himself and his weapon and know when NOT to hold that button down for a full mag...

    Seriously, you 'pros' kill me sometimes! From where I stand, predictable is EASY. You actually want multiple rounds to go exactly the same place on full auto while you move your hand a certain way? Has it occurred to you that being able to quickly think, plan and compensate for variation is actually a skill you have that new players DON'T????

    :shakesHead:

    I've been suspicious for a long time that 'pros' want the game to have a certain kind of 'easy.' :(

    While it's not really the definition of skill to learn a pattern (every idiot can do so, actually controlling the weapon with that pattern on moving enemies isn't that easy btw) it's by far superior to randomly spraying and praying (pretty much what the game is about atm).
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    I'm currently trying to memorize the spread pattern of the shotgun over various distances to know which individual shell case has which spread and to know best when to take the shot (or not) dependent on which spread the next case will give me :)

    I perhaps might be perceived as going too far? Let me know in the comments section.
    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • Variable in recoil, this does NOT exist in real life!

    Neither does being able to get revived and run off fighting with a GSW to the head or chest. But...anyhoo, The level of recoil built INTO the game is a fixed mathematical set. As many have said, there are only a few different variables that will adjust that level. One thing that I didn't see (or didn't look hard enough at) is the stress level between incident. That alone will affect the shot (sometimes the greatest variable). Yes environment and the distance may have an impact however your physical status (muscle tension) adjusts - even when one tries to make the same shot every time. Thus the biggest variable which has not been taken into account is the human physiology. Everything else being mathematically calculated ingame will not affect the recoil level from shot to shot (if trying for the same type of shot.

    Also to state that the recoil level in real life never changes is a fallacy. There are so many more variables in RL which will impact the consistency of the recoil.

    And - Few people play the same each map let alone same map. I do know what you are talking about in terms of rubber bullets. I sometimes find the latency and lag to be a problem however overall I feel it is within acceptable margins (unless someone is tanking the server).
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