ACI Bans - "Shared IP Accounts" - question

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  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    BCPull wrote: »
    (Assuming the same IP for all of the following)

    Strong evidence for different players at the same house with overlapping IP links:
    Acct1 June 8, 9pm: server 1
    Acct2 June 8, 9:02pm: server 2 (hard to play two accounts on two different servers simultaneously)
    Acct1 June 8, 9:32pm: server 3
    Acct2 June 8, 9:45pm: server 4

    well I do not know the coding behind overlapping link, but assumed it would not show overlapping link, if the players were actually playing simultaneously on different servers.

    And somewhat also assumed it also includes other information regarding hardware in the mix.

    So really looking forward to the BG class.

    @BCPull : I will shortly post a login compare as a case study on ACI forums.. would like to hear your take on this.
  • t[F]s.ARTAQt[F]s.ARTAQ Posts: 46Player
    i agree Doba!

    the whole time stamp thing does make sense.

    i'm guessing a game like AAPG which has such a small player population, that a repeating /shared IP from AA2 to AAPG ... well what are the chances honestly. common sense comes into play to don't it?
  • omerta`easyomerta`easy Posts: 46Player
    Otherwise why to use ACI tool in the first place?

    One thing I do not know at the moment: Does ACI use MAC ID match for overlapping IPs like it used to be for AA2 or just the IP?

    MAC is no better for determining a player's identity than IP. You can easily change your computer's MAC. If you use MAC to create a link between two players a malicious player could link himself to you by using your MAC. I don't think ACI even has any way of knowing a player's MAC from just streamed PB logs. They certainly don't have any other unique hardware identification information.

    None of the information gathered by ACI should be considered reliable and should not be used when trying to determine if a player is cheating. Make your decisions based off your own server logs and screenshots only. By trusting ACI you are trusting everyone who streams their logs to ACI. ACI has no way of verifying the integrity of the servers streaming to them, and therefore no information gathered by them should be considered valid.

    Maybe ACI has some arrangement with even balance so that they can verify their logs with logs from the PB master servers, but i truly doubt it. If they had access to PB master server logs there wouldn't be a need to stream your server logs to them in the first place.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    Otherwise why to use ACI tool in the first place?

    One thing I do not know at the moment: Does ACI use MAC ID match for overlapping IPs like it used to be for AA2 or just the IP?

    MAC is no better for determining a player's identity than IP. You can easily change your computer's MAC. If you use MAC to create a link between two players a malicious player could link himself to you by using your MAC. I don't think ACI even has any way of knowing a player's MAC from just streamed PB logs. They certainly don't have any other unique hardware identification information.

    None of the information gathered by ACI should be considered reliable and should not be used when trying to determine if a player is cheating. Make your decisions based off your own server logs and screenshots only. By trusting ACI you are trusting everyone who streams their logs to ACI. ACI has no way of verifying the integrity of the servers streaming to them, and therefore no information gathered by them should be considered valid.

    Maybe ACI has some arrangement with even balance so that they can verify their logs with logs from the PB master servers, but i truly doubt it. If they had access to PB master server logs there wouldn't be a need to stream your server logs to them in the first place.

    Sorry mate but you dont really make any sense here

    1- you say MAC and IP are useless to determine the players identity, so if you cant use this information what else you can use to link 2 accounts?

    2-I know how easy it is to change MAC ID, but I hardly seen masses going around and doing it generally

    3-You say you can not rely on server logs being streamed to ACI but later you say check you own server logs and pbbs.. which one is it? Cos I do stream to ACI as well :)

    4- You say "maybe ACI has some arrangement with even balance, but you doubt it" .. well this shows your opinion is hardly based on any facts but your subjective opinion about ACI..

    5- The part about the integrity of the servers streaming to them is a bit paranoia, since I dont think anyone would create a server to stream false player data just to mess up ACI data in general.

    6- And ACI knew about the MAC IDs in the past for aa2.. I am not sure if they still do, (I think they do but can not really publish it due to privacy policies

  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Sorry mate but you dont really make any sense here

    1- you say MAC and IP are useless to determine the players identity, so if you cant use this information what else you can use to link 2 accounts?
    Just because you want a good solution doesn't mean one exists or that there aren't issues with what's available.
    2-I know how easy it is to change MAC ID, but I hardly seen masses going around and doing it generally
    Nobody bothers to change it because there isn't a need due to the system's flaws. If anyone were to start using it as a check, you'd see people changing it. Tools already exist for this.
    3-You say you can not rely on server logs being streamed to ACI but later you say check you own server logs and pbbs.. which one is it? Cos I do stream to ACI as well :)
    He can check his own server logs because he knows his own haven't been tampered with. He's saying you don't have that assurance with logs from ACI because there's no guarantee those haven't been tampered with.
    4- You say "maybe ACI has some arrangement with even balance, but you doubt it" .. well this shows your opinion is hardly based on any facts but your subjective opinion about ACI..
    Admitting ignorance of a possible behind-closed-doors deal isn't an admission that the rest of the points don't carry water.
    5- The part about the integrity of the servers streaming to them is a bit paranoia, since I dont think anyone would create a server to stream false player data just to mess up ACI data in general.
    It's still fair to point out that, as I've heard at least (haven't Wireshark'd it myself), data is streamed unencrypted from servers to ACI. That makes it especially vulnerable to MITM-style attacks. This is why sites like PBBans say they'll only accept servers hosted at datacenters (so that malicious users don't have direct access to the server instance). However, both ACI and PBBans accept AAPG servers that are hosted in ways that make their databases vulnerable to this kind of attack.
    6- And ACI knew about the MAC IDs in the past for aa2.. I am not sure if they still do, (I think they do but can not really publish it due to privacy policies
    And they don't publish it now because it isn't reliable.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    Well I got it BCPull, you prefer to argue against me :)

    I am sure you would take his arguments much easily apart if you wanted to.. cos any sane person would see that he is arguing subjectively against ACI.

    I just ask this simple question, why are you a member of ACI if you share the same opinion as the player I argued against?
    If you dont share his opinion.. then you are just arguing for the sake of argument, which is a bit weird in my eyes :)



  • -v3.Bart!-v3.Bart! Posts: 125Player
    Well I got it BCPull, you prefer to argue against me :)

    I am sure you would take his arguments much easily apart if you wanted to.. cos any sane person would see that he is arguing subjectively against ACI.

    I just ask this simple question, why are you a member of ACI if you share the same opinion as the player I argued against?
    If you dont share his opinion.. then you are just arguing for the sake of argument, which is a bit weird in my eyes :)



    It's probably because ACI is better compared with nothing, however we should not blindly trust anything they do.
    SNLSTB.Bart^
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    I've talked with Easy in the past about the issues he brings up and share his concerns. There are technical aspects of this that he knows better than I do and I trust his evaluation. It's not argument for the sake of argument. The issues have to do with how EvenBalance has implemented the way PB generates its logs, how those logs are transmitted to third parties, and how ACI (and others!) evaluate which servers to accept logs from. Heck, I'd love for his concerns to be proven invalid by Fragnader or someone else that can demonstrate how the proposed attack methods are mitigated by controls currently in place.


    Why have I donated to ACI in the past? Recognizing flaws in a system doesn't mean I think a system is irreparable or doesn't have any potential. Meanwhile, I don't manage a server any longer, so my account will be downgraded soon on whatever timescale they've set up.

    Why do I choose to disagree with you? Because I think Easy's concerns are valid and shouldn't be dismissed. Anyone that places themselves in an active administrative role needs to understand the limitations of their tools.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    BCPull wrote: »
    I've talked with Easy in the past about the issues he brings up and share his concerns. There are technical aspects of this that he knows better than I do and I trust his evaluation. It's not argument for the sake of argument. The issues have to do with how EvenBalance has implemented the way PB generates its logs, how those logs are transmitted to third parties, and how ACI (and others!) evaluate which servers to accept logs from. Heck, I'd love for his concerns to be proven invalid by Fragnader or someone else that can demonstrate how the proposed attack methods are mitigated by controls currently in place.


    Why have I donated to ACI in the past? Recognizing flaws in a system doesn't mean I think a system is irreparable or doesn't have any potential. Meanwhile, I don't manage a server any longer, so my account will be downgraded soon on whatever timescale they've set up.

    Why do I choose to disagree with you? Because I think Easy's concerns are valid and shouldn't be dismissed. Anyone that places themselves in an active administrative role needs to understand the limitations of their tools.

    I do not know easy.. it sounded more like someone who tries to talk bad about the only possible way for us to fight tos violators in this game..

    Sure I can imagine there are a lot of questions how they conduct the data collection, but I guess some stuff you cant really share with public (or ACI Streaming Admins/members) cos they need to be kept secret.

    I do not know if you remember the thread on ACI when it was argued why video evidence is not accepted, and I found the argument weak, that it can be altered.
    I gave the same example of server logs as easy.. but I think this goes beyond the motivation of an individual tos violator. Just to mess up with streamed data.

    The part with encrypted transfer of logs is indeed an issue, if its the case. I dont have enough background information on that
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    edited July 2015
    I do not know if you remember the thread on ACI when it was argued why video evidence is not accepted, and I found the argument weak, that it can be altered.

    So you are saying a player choking the whole enemy team at the same time before the round even started is obvious and could be caught by video evidence?
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    I do not know if you remember the thread on ACI when it was argued why video evidence is not accepted, and I found the argument weak, that it can be altered.

    So you are saying a player choking the whole enemy team at the same time before the round even started is obvious and could be caught by video evidence?

    Wasn't that one fixed already?
    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    edited July 2015
    Probably, just remembered that case since it was on ACI back then. Of course that guy didn't end up getting banned. Some might remember Mr.EpicGoat as well, a known cheater who even uploaded himself cheating to his youtube channel, there were at least 3 background checks requested for that guy, people posted videos and of course he didn't end up getting banned as well.
  • omerta`easyomerta`easy Posts: 46Player
    edited July 2015

    5- The part about the integrity of the servers streaming to them is a bit paranoia, since I dont think anyone would create a server to stream false player data just to mess up ACI data in general.

    This flaw has been exploited in other games on multiple occasions. Hundreds if not thousands of false bans were generated by malicious individuals wishing to discredit PBBans and company. As BC mentioned PBBans and other AC communities have stricter requirements for accepting logs from servers because of this.

    I think BC did a good job addressing the rest of your concerns.

    This is not a problem that ACI can fix. PB log streaming was not designed to be used in this manner. Secure log streaming will require support from even balance (lol).
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player

    5- The part about the integrity of the servers streaming to them is a bit paranoia, since I dont think anyone would create a server to stream false player data just to mess up ACI data in general.

    This flaw has been exploited in other games on multiple occasions. Hundreds if not thousands of false bans were generated by malicious individuals wishing to discredit PBBans and company. As BC mentioned PBBans and other AC communities have stricter requirements for accepting logs from servers because of this.

    I think BC did a good job addressing the rest of your concerns.

    This is not a problem that ACI can fix. PB log streaming was not designed to be used in this manner. Secure log streaming will require support from even balance (lol).

    Well I can understand the concern about the secure log streaming. But PBBans also do not do a conclusive BG check before accepting members (I had the feeling they accepted my application right away, cos the server was streaming)
    Also if someone goes the trouble of setting a fake server just to stream fake data, setting up that server on datacenter would be the least of the problems. I am sure ACI or any other AC Community would check how the data is created in the first place. I can think of easy ways to populate pb logs via ftp instead of game itself.
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