Proof of the ability to take damage while behind cover.

.dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
edited July 2015 in General Discussion


Player that gets kill has 168ping
Player that dies has 24ping

Can imagine someone with 200 or 300ping vs 24ping?? In this video you clearly see the player has already left the high pingers vision and it looks like he is shooting the wall but somehow gets the kill on the 24 ping! This is ridiculous and exactly why people have a problem with high pingers in server and why there should be a 150 ping cap on all servers!
Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



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Comments

  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    edited July 2015
    Just gonna leave this here.. Also this one..
  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    edited July 2015
    We've gone into excruciating detail about this in the past, but I'll just say the short version again.

    High ping has it's own unique slight advantages and disadvantages. That is to say, high ping hurts you as much as it could possibly 'help' you.
    The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    Yah Maybe I should titled this differently. Nevermind the ping advantage yes it has it's disadvantages and advantages. But what I don't understand is how this can be acceptable. How is acceptable for someone to get a kill after someone has already went into cover?
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player


    Player that gets kill has 168ping
    Player that dies has 24ping

    Can imagine someone with 200 or 300ping vs 24ping?? In this video you clearly see the player has already left the high pingers vision and it looks like he is shooting the wall but somehow gets the kill on the 24 ping! This is ridiculous and exactly why people have a problem with high pingers in server and why there should be a 150 ping cap on all servers!
    This is exactly why games use client-side detection. On Stravinsk's screen, that player was in view and the kill would've looked perfectly fine.

    It's not unfair for the player that died, either. He's exposed in that window for the same amount of time whether Stravinsk has 20 ping or 200.

    I do think players should be encouraged to find low-ping servers since it can improve other aspects of network dynamics. It's also better for player perception of how well the game behaves; having high ping can make some movements jerky and the game can feel much less fluid. In this engine and with CSHD, I don't think "fairness" is a reason to worry about ping. The windows for player reaction remain the same size.

    nWD22Ju.png
  • .sauce.sauce Posts: 308Player
    This is a small gripe by the way and just a part of the negatives outweighed by the positives, but when you see an enemy you don't actually know if they see you yet because their response/movement is slightly behind your worldview, so a shoot-first mentality is required even when it's possible that waiting for a player to take one more step or shift slightly would yield a better result. So while you might be exposed for the same amount of time, what you are seeing isn't 100% what you are getting. Personally I prefer playing a game where the worldview is the most accurate part of the network even if that means I have to be more clever with my shooting, but I understand how this system is far more versatile and necessary.
    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    But that's just it, right? Any action they take is replicated the same way to you and your ability to react remains the same. Whether their ping is 20 or 200, your time to react based on their action isn't affected.

    The major situations where this breaks down are when there are feedback loops present (suppression effects being an obvious possible case study, though I haven't thought about it too much yet) or when you want to react to how the player reacts to *your* action kinds of deals.

    In any case, the situations people have typically brought up have centered around dying behind corners and the like. These have tended to be clear-cut cases where "ping advantage" isn't playing a role.

    "Worldview accuracy" just isn't something that exists outside of LAN play, though I totally sympathize with you on it.
  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    edited July 2015
    BCPull wrote: »


    Player that gets kill has 168ping
    Player that dies has 24ping

    Can imagine someone with 200 or 300ping vs 24ping?? In this video you clearly see the player has already left the high pingers vision and it looks like he is shooting the wall but somehow gets the kill on the 24 ping! This is ridiculous and exactly why people have a problem with high pingers in server and why there should be a 150 ping cap on all servers!
    This is exactly why games use client-side detection. On Stravinsk's screen, that player was in view and the kill would've looked perfectly fine.

    It's not unfair for the player that died, either. He's exposed in that window for the same amount of time whether Stravinsk has 20 ping or 200.

    I do think players should be encouraged to find low-ping servers since it can improve other aspects of network dynamics. It's also better for player perception of how well the game behaves; having high ping can make some movements jerky and the game can feel much less fluid. In this engine and with CSHD, I don't think "fairness" is a reason to worry about ping. The windows for player reaction remain the same size.

    nWD22Ju.png

    And what about in the full release with aim punch is that player going to be affected properly. Also in this version with suppression and others things. Sounds, etc.. There is all sorts of reason why this is not acceptable just because you have same time frame to shoot no matter what it doesn't make it acceptable. With all these other potential issues this can cause how is it still fair, and if this is really the case why does it not happen every single time vs a high pinger!?!?! why is it only sometimes...Like this is the first time I have ever noticed someone get a kill like this I have not spectate very much but in my eyes this is def an issue needed to be address Very inconsistent and I have to say your very wrong about this being fair. If you above theory/image was correct we would see this everytime a high pinger got a kill like this. It's a very rare issue. but still a potential huge issue. When battlefield 4 came out it was really bad like this people would die after behind cover a lot it was not a rare sight and they patched and fixed that up.

    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    A certain degree of this is going to exist just because of the limits of tech. No matter what you have to go through your route to the server, and he has to go through his route to the server, then the server has to process everything, then send it back out. Until we get to quantum computing for our hitreg some of this is just going to exist. There will always be some degree of delay and time shift. Different games hide it in different ways, but it exists everywhere.
    The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    What you say Tots is true.. but wouldn't high ping differences help in making this effect larger than it needs to be? I guarantee low pings vs low pings its not going to be as noticeable... thats the reason for a ping cap
    _____________________________
    #Support Comp Mode

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    BF4 initially had a very low tickrate -- 10 Hz -- and that led to issues. BF also uses different systems for trying to hide network issues with complicated interpolation systems that can increase the delay between the player and the server even more. Ideally, it can make the game feel more "smooth" (less rubberbanding), but the penalty is that higher delay. The end result can be dying behind cover even more than UE3's approach can cause.

    100ms is a short time. That's why it's somewhat rare to see clear examples of ping-induced issues like this, everything has to line up just right.

    Regardless of player ping, the travel time for data from one player to the other is generally going to be symmetric. If you both start shooting at the "same time", you're both going to be affected by suppression from the other person at the "same time".

    Fig 1: Regardless of who shoots first or who has higher ping, players affect one another equally
    xoFfiAO.png


    Now, when everyone has lower ping, everything is still just as fair, but players will seem to react more quickly (even though each player sees themselves as having the same reaction time in all of my scenarios).

    This plays into suppression because, in the higher combined ping case, the player shooting first will suffer less from return-fire suppression (regardless of which player is low-ping and which is high-ping). In that sense, the game is still fair, though the game may feel slightly different.

    Fig 2: When player combined ping is lower, the apparent reaction times of players will seem faster
    VH7deWc.png
  • SL_zOmbiSL_zOmbi Posts: 124Player
    ehm... Am i the only one who see that you hit em in the hand?
    Maybe im wrong...
    index.php?soldier=zOmbi-
  • .sauce.sauce Posts: 308Player
    BCPull wrote: »
    But that's just it, right? Any action they take is replicated the same way to you and your ability to react remains the same. Whether their ping is 20 or 200, your time to react based on their action isn't affected.

    The major situations where this breaks down are when there are feedback loops present (suppression effects being an obvious possible case study, though I haven't thought about it too much yet) or when you want to react to how the player reacts to *your* action kinds of deals.

    In any case, the situations people have typically brought up have centered around dying behind corners and the like. These have tended to be clear-cut cases where "ping advantage" isn't playing a role.

    "Worldview accuracy" just isn't something that exists outside of LAN play, though I totally sympathize with you on it.

    In my example, it's no such much a visual or sound cue on my end that would have them react, but say if they just happen to turn toward me as I'm looking at them. Obviously the simple solution is to fire on contact, but maybe I'm waiting on their teammate who caries the flag to show up or whatever, just saying, ignoring gamesense discussions, that if I happen to be standing in that window for a 200ms period of time and am counting on seeing them shift toward me to engage, I'm at the slightest disadvantage. My worldview is skewed in their favor through circumstance, not fair reaction times. And it's just the breaks. This applies to all situations in which a player remains stationary and has no audio-visual cues to inform them of an approaching enemy. The approaching enemy already has a perfectly accurate placement of you in their worldview, while your view might be slightly behind theirs, depending on interp and how they move. It's really small stuff we're talking about obviously, just discussing the things I see as setbacks to the system. 50 ms is a really really small amount of time, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a lot of trade-kills happen within a 50ms time frame (or would have prior to the server check). As Tots explained, it's what you have to deal with in WAN gaming. Again I think it's the best option and works wonderfully well, but obviously it's not perfect.
    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
  • Yato^Yato^ Posts: 103Player
    edited July 2015
    If only people would try to get a grasp of how things function before they start crying about it being broken and assigning reasons for it being that way. But then these threads wouldn't exist and then there's nothing to cry about.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Such a good bait for causing drama though. Inb4: xy's excuse for getting owned by z who happens to play at a higher ping for whatever reason.
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    yeah just because things are meant to function a certain way doesnt mean they do in reality.. to say high pingers dont affect the performance of a server is just nonesense.. so to say things like you see in that video are happening because of high pings isnt a stretch.
    _____________________________
    #Support Comp Mode

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
  • Yato^Yato^ Posts: 103Player
    =IK=Doba= wrote: »
    yeah just because things are meant to function a certain way doesnt mean they do in reality.. to say high pingers dont affect the performance of a server is just nonesense.. so to say things like you see in that video are happening because of high pings isnt a stretch.

    This is what I'm talking about, you don't know what you're on about.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    .sauce --

    Your situation boils down, I think, to a concern over "Fig 2" from my last post. When one of the players involved has a higher ping, there's more time to act before seeing the reaction. If Bob turns around in your example and Adam is in the window, Bob'll have (Adam's ping + Bob's ping + Adam's reaction time) time to act before they see Adam react by moving out of the way. Note that it doesn't matter which player has the low ping. The important point is that it works for and against a player equally depending on which side of the situation they're on.

    I hear what you're saying about "old information" and the fact that a stationary player's current position happens to be the same as the player's old position. The thing is, though, with CSHD, I think that's ultimately irrelevant -- all that matters is what the client's current snapshot is.

    I agree, it's not perfect. It's the same caveat as before: with lower pings all around, everybody will look like they're reacting better to everyone.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,621Beta Tester
    Hey......let's ADD ping to everyone artificially to even it up on a server, and then it will seem perfectly normal....




    No?

    :p
    ______

    This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    I thought about slightly DDoSing myself because of that awesome high ping advantage.
  • IO_i_OIIO_i_OI Posts: 1,107Player
    I get way more kills on the Euro servers. Try those.
    googley avatar aapg


This discussion has been closed.