My three biggest pet peeves with AAPG right now.

={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 1,993Player
edited December 2018 in General Discussion
I've consistently been playing AAPG over the past couple months, there are certainly things that I feel need to change to make this game great. However, I'm going to just list three things that I find to be the most annoying about this game. These are the three things that most make me not want to play the game at times.

1. Grenades -
Grenades are tossed all over the place without care. CQB maps are loaded with spam. Grenades have a kill range of 5 meters. Flashes have an unavoidable blinding range of 5 meters. Here's a picture of what a room with a 5 meter radius looks like:
6vq4.png
If a player lands a grenade directly in the middle of this room, everyone who doesn't have something to hide behind will die or be flashed no matter if they turn away or not. This is a decently large area. From there, with a grenade, the damage distance tapers off up to 13 meters (if you're within 12 meters you will get hurt). Here's what that looks like:
6vq8.png
With flash bangs, once you are outside of that 5 meter radius, turning away greatly dampens the effect.

Why it's bad: The kill and injury radius are both huge. A grenade has an injury area of 374 square meters and a kill area of 78 square meters (total impact area = 452 square meters). The kill radius allows for easy flashes and grenade kills from poorly thrown grenades. A grenade that lands 5 meters away from an enemy should not reward a kill on a 100% health enemy. It rewards spam and not taking care to cook and place grenades well. Also with the injury radius being so large, injured players are easily taken out by a grenade that lands extremely far away. Again, rewarding spam and poorly thrown grenades.
Flashbangs are similar in that many interior rooms can be quite small. If a player doesn't cook a flash and have it blow up with the enemy having no time to turn away then they shouldn't get rewarded unless the flash lands pretty much dead on the guy. Currently grenades reward low skill play.

How it should change:
Frags: Cut the kill radius for frag grenades by half. Cut the injury radius by half. Reward players who land good frags and not poorly thrown spam grenades. Players will also spam less since the chances of getting a blindly thrown uncooked/partly cooked grenade to land a kill or seriously hurt an enemy will greatly decrease.
Flashes: Increase the full blind radius for flashes that land in front of a player. Decrease the radius to 2 or 2.5 meters for if a player turns away. This lower radius will reward players who land a perfect flash, but give players who are being flashed a chance to turn away if the flash is poorly thrown. Looking at a flash should have a bigger effect no matter where it lands.


2-Lack of Penalties
Currently you have no penalties for movement or leaning with ADS.

Why it's bad: Movement penalties have more to do with skill curve. Making it harder to shoot on the move makes it more difficult to learn how to hit shots well. Players either need to learn how to overcome the penalty or stop and fire without penalty. No penalty in leaning is a worse issue. The game is pretty much lean wars. Everyone leans out from cover exposing as little of their body as possible (sometimes even just the very tip of their head) and fires away. There's no reason not to use this tactic because there's no penalty. A player who exposes their full body when they can easily just lean around cover is putting themselves at a big disadvantage.

What should change: There are really only two types of penalties you can add for both of these things that make sense in the game. One is an accuracy cone that makes you inaccurate. This game typically has never had accuracy cones with ADS, so it would be a very tough change, but one I'd be interested to see how it would work (basically standing still gives no penalty, moving and leaning gives a penalty). Another option is to increase sway when you lean or move. You can even do both and find the right balance somewhere. Another point here is that if you were to implement a movement penalty and not a leaning penalty then you'd create a huge advantage for defenders. Defends should have to make a choice of suffering a penalty or exposing more of their body to incoming fire. For the realism guys, these penalties also make sense. Moving and leaning both create a less stable firing position and would make it more difficult to fire with perfect accuracy.


3- Suppression + Aim Punch
We've discussed this a million times. Personally, I hate both. I'm not going to even bother writing a big paragraph about it.

Honorable mention to snipers and DM rifles being a joke to use (i.e. too easy). Easy solution: The higher the zoom the greater the sway (this is how AA2 did it). AAPG currently has identical sway for higher zoom sights vs. 1x sights.

There are obviously more things that I think can change (I've made other threads), but I'd rather just focus on those things for now.
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Comments

  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,413Beta Tester
    My Devils Advocate counterpoint to your arguments is that each player has these same challenges and constraints, therefor, the player that understands and compensates for them the best is effectively the most skilled.

    The argument that I hear most often is that these factors get in the way of 'skill' and I think the logical extension of that is that people want to play a certain way, instead of being good at the game. If they can't be good at the game as it is, they don't rise to the challenge but instead want to shape the game to their perceived strengths in an area more comfortable to them. It's akin to saying the game beat them and they don't like it.

    The other side of this coin is that there are many MANY people who don't understand (for a variety of reasons) how the game mechanics actally work. (Corner geometry is a great example.)

    This isn't to say I disagree with all of your points, but that it's an incomplete picture of the issue.

    For example, I can add to your lean penalty topic by pointing out that lean speeds and perfect re-lean accuracy allow people to work underneath the latency window. Combined with the small exposure of body area due to camera position, we arrive at the OP issue you're describing. It, and corner geometry, is the key characteristic of map domination by a player who understands it.

    I agree with 'scoped rifle' ease of use problems.

    I don't entirely agree with the hit effects issue as soldiers are not trained to "OK Corral" an engagement and stare down the enemy while taking hits. Therefor, these effects are the penalties to improper engagements. This probably goes back to wanting the game to be a certain way, instead of beating it the way it is. The Army wanted a certain message sent to combatants. One was 'don't shoot your buddy.' Another was probably 'Taking gunfire sucks! Avoid it!"

    I go back to "everyone is facing the same issues. Adapt and overcome."

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  • -SD-DELTON-ACI--SD-DELTON-ACI- Posts: 1,379Player
    I don't mind any of it only thing I hate is the nade shake I would like to see it removed its more a 9.5 earthquake than a nade going off.
    I am upstairs above choke nade goes off under me at choke and I still shake that's just silly and I see no damage to the building you would think with all that shaking there would be at least some cracks in the wall =)
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    Keebler750 wrote: »
    My Devils Advocate counterpoint to your arguments is that each player has these same challenges and constraints, therefor, the player that understands and compensates for them the best is effectively the most skilled.

    The argument that I hear most often is that these factors get in the way of 'skill' and I think the logical extension of that is that people want to play a certain way, instead of being good at the game. If they can't be good at the game as it is, they don't rise to the challenge but instead want to shape the game to their perceived strengths in an area more comfortable to them. It's akin to saying the game beat them and they don't like it.

    It should be about what creates the best gameplay not about "we all play under the same circumstances, deal with it"
    You can add far more randomness to this game which could make it almost impossible to kill someone, does that mean more skill is required? and since we all have to play with the same mechanics its supposed to be fine?

    Never understood why you cant turn away from a flash, means better flashes need to be thrown, and unaware players will suffer the consequences. So you need to learn, rather than just throw an object into dark room and go spray.

    Leaning, I've had my opinion on lean.. its garbage all together for even the single reason that it creates single pixel fighting. Not to mention its defensively OP and lessens the importance of corner geometry.

    When it comes to peeking, both offense and defense should have advantages and disadvantages for balance, the advantage comes from being in position before your opponent, set and ready to fire the disadvantage to peeking is exposure, which leaning pretty much eliminates, the other disadvantage comes after you miss your initial shots and go back to cover, this is where the advantage could change hands. Now its the defender who needs to expose himself to the fight and the shot is in the attacking players advantage.
    However, this is where leaning changes everything! there is no disadvantage for the defender, you can re peek with little to no exposure, or re position yourself and re lean holding slightly different angle.

    The attacker wins this battle when the defender lacks basic skills of shooting, with two players of equal skill the defender is going to win the battle a massive % of the time, the result? game balance is broken.

    Suppression and Aim punch, discussed to death, they're two factors that create more randomness when the feature is over powered. Again randomness can make things extremely difficult, that doesn't mean it takes skill to overcome. These two features are just that, a "feature" you can have it in game, letting me know its there, but not to the point where it becomes the game.

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  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 1,993Player
    edited December 2018
    Grenade shake does suck, kind of goes with the suppression issue.

    When it comes to skill in a game, you have to ask is the penalty imposed by the player or by an outside force (enemies included)? When a player has a base of maximum effectiveness and then his own actions cause him to lose that maximum effectiveness, he can adjust the way he plays to minimize/eliminate those penalties. The more efficient he becomes at doing this, the better he gets at the game. This is a form of skill curve. External penalties are impossible to learn and adjust to since they are out of the player's control. Therefore, it is best to limit them. Obviously some penalties due to outside forces can be acceptable, but an excessive amount adds more randomness. Randomness flattens out the skill curve. Same can be said for anything that limits a player's ability to perform actions.

    Anyway, a good example of how lean can work with a penalty... Let's just talk about an accuracy cone. Player leans and now has an accuracy cone. The accuracy cone is not too large like unsighted fire, but it's enough of a cone that medium range shots have a fairly decent chance of missing the target and long range shots have a good chance of missing the target. Player now has to make some choices. If his enemy is far away, leaning may cause him to miss his shots and leave him open to return fire. If he does decide to lean, he can try to aim for body shots rather than going for a head shot since he'll have a larger target to shoot at and have a better chance of landing his shots. He can also decide to expose himself completely and have perfect accuracy and be able to aim better. However, doing so puts himself at higher risk. If he knows his enemy is close and will have little chance of missing, he may decide it's better to just lean and as such will do so. Medium range can be a combination of the two. Again, this all creates a situation where the player needs to make a decision as to which strategy is best. Whereas the current setup requires zero decision making.

    Part of skill is also forcing the players to make decisions. When you have certain strategies that are default the best way to do something, there's no thinking or decision making. Spam that grenade and you'll probably kill or injure your enemies, add to that the earthquake shake to disorient enemies who aren't in the blast range, no thought goes into it. Maybe at most the use of a grenade at a bad point in the round can leave you without one in a pivotal point in the late round. Lean around that corner, expose almost none of your body, no penalties imposed. Use supported, get laser like weapon fire, no penalties imposed. These are all high power moves with no penalties, but high benefits.
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  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 624Player
    Keebler750 wrote: »
    My Devils Advocate counterpoint to your arguments is that each player has these same challenges and constraints, therefor, the player that understands and compensates for them the best is effectively the most skilled.

    The argument that I hear most often is that these factors get in the way of 'skill' and I think the logical extension of that is that people want to play a certain way, instead of being good at the game. If they can't be good at the game as it is, they don't rise to the challenge but instead want to shape the game to their perceived strengths in an area more comfortable to them. It's akin to saying the game beat them and they don't like it.

    The other side of this coin is that there are many MANY people who don't understand (for a variety of reasons) how the game mechanics actally work. (Corner geometry is a great example.)

    This isn't to say I disagree with all of your points, but that it's an incomplete picture of the issue.

    For example, I can add to your lean penalty topic by pointing out that lean speeds and perfect re-lean accuracy allow people to work underneath the latency window. Combined with the small exposure of body area due to camera position, we arrive at the OP issue you're describing. It, and corner geometry, is the key characteristic of map domination by a player who understands it.

    I agree with 'scoped rifle' ease of use problems.

    I don't entirely agree with the hit effects issue as soldiers are not trained to "OK Corral" an engagement and stare down the enemy while taking hits. Therefor, these effects are the penalties to improper engagements. This probably goes back to wanting the game to be a certain way, instead of beating it the way it is. The Army wanted a certain message sent to combatants. One was 'don't shoot your buddy.' Another was probably 'Taking gunfire sucks! Avoid it!"

    I go back to "everyone is facing the same issues. Adapt and overcome."

    What he says about grenades and flashes is exactly right. It's not debatable. He also did a fantastic job of including screenshots to show exactly the ranges he's talking about. Avoiding getting hit or killed by grenades that aren't even intended for you isn't a skill. I know we've been around and around on this, but it's probably the easiest example of low, and often no, skill mechanics in the game.

    There are a lot of terrible grenades and flashes that are heavily rewarded. The changes he's talking about would increase the skill ceiling. Period. We've all benefited from our own poorly thrown flashes and grenades. That doesn't mean they're fine as-is. Saying that "everyone is facing the same issues" isn't a justification. It just means the bad mechanic is equally bad for everyone.

    Everyone is also capable of cooking grenades and flashes, so there's no reason you shouldn't be able to put it right on an enemy without giving them a chance to turn away or run. In CS flashes have multiple ways they can be used. You can "pop flash" so it goes off in a player's view with no opportunity to turn away. You can also bounce one behind you as you go around a corner which will force the enemy to either land quick shots or turn away. In AAPG you can use a flash as a distraction or attempt to blind someone with it. The changes Whiplash is talking about would (or at least should) make the person throwing it decide what the intent is. Sometimes I'll throw an uncooked flash, with no real intent to blind someone, in an attempt to clear an area so I can relocate or try to revive a teammate. Other times I'll cook it and attempt to air-burst it on top of or right in front of an enemy.

    Here's an example of a bad flash being rewarded:



    Potential penalties for moving, leaning, etc while firing are a good topic for discussion. I wouldn't mind experimenting with some sort of leaning penalty. Perhaps increased sway. I don't know if I like the idea of your ADS coming up at a random part of the sway instead of where you were aimed. I do think it should be something that can be learned instead of something RNG.

    I know they've made adjustments to lean in the past, but it's still really easy to take advantage of the reality of latency and quick peek people, having the shot lined up before you even peek. Part of me wishes I'd picked up the game back before leaning was added to see how it played then.

    The hit/suppression effects are clearly over-the-top. They're implemented in such a way that skill is often completely removed from the equation. The debate part is how to fix it. Does aim punch get removed? Does the visual effect of suppression get removed or significantly reduced?

    Personally, I'd like to see how it would play with one effect in place, such as aim punch. I don't think aim punch should happen on every hit. The initial damage you take in a fight could slightly adjust your view. Everything after that is unaffected. For example say you get aim punched, you'd be "immune" to another one for a period of time. Say a second or two.

    The blinding effect of suppression to the point that your ability to aim is purely down to luck is ridiculous. If you want a visual effect, have some minor blurring on the edges of the screen. That and the sound of bullets whizzing by are more than enough for players to know they're being suppressed. Basically any form of double vision needs to go. As it stands now, you're just rewarding players for missing.


  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 1,993Player
    edited December 2018
    With the double vision, I've definitely had kills where I could hardly see a thing and I managed to kill a guy out of 100% pure luck. There's no skill to that, it's just plain lucky. I think a blur on just the outside of the screen is plenty. I also like the idea of aim punch only affecting you with the first hit and not subsequent hits for a certain amount of time.

    What's funny about suppression is that you can use it to disorient a guy who is in a better position and is attacking you. Sometimes I do it out of sheer desperation. If my crosshair is anywhere near my enemy and I'm getting attacked out in the open, it's sometimes a better strategy to just fire random shots in their direction in hopes that their screen will blur/shake enough that they start missing instead of either running away or trying to hit them with a well placed shot.

    As a side note, with the Army actually investing into eSports, it would be nice if their own game was a legitimate skill based competitive game. It doesn't need to be super fast like CS or overly structured like R6:S. However, it needs to be a game that rewards skill over randomness and makes every action and feature have a purpose rather than to just look cool or to flatten the skill curve to make the game more accessible. Those types of things may work in the console market, but the PC market demands high skill competitive games.
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  • Dct.F|LeventeDct.F|Levente Posts: 456Beta Tester
    With the double vision, I've definitely had kills where I could hardly see a thing and I managed to kill a guy out of 100% pure luck. There's no skill to that, it's just plain lucky. I think a blur on just the outside of the screen is plenty. I also like the idea of aim punch only affecting you with the first hit and not subsequent hits for a certain amount of time.

    What's funny about suppression is that you can use it to disorient a guy who is in a better position and is attacking you. Sometimes I do it out of sheer desperation. If my crosshair is anywhere near my enemy and I'm getting attacked out in the open, it's sometimes a better strategy to just fire random shots in their direction in hopes that their screen will blur/shake enough that they start missing instead of either running away or trying to hit them with a well placed shot.

    AFAIK, the double vision is only a visual effect. The bullets still go to the center of your screen (well, where your scope is under all that double vision). So I'd not say pure luck, especially not at close range. You can kill people when you are fully flashed and that is not 100% luck either - predicting timings, moving and keeping aim while not able to see anything is not luck. When under double vision, you can see a lot compared to being flashed. So if we say, that full flashed kills take skill, double vision kills do as well.

    Regarding suppression: well, I think this is part of real life behavior. Under fire? Shoot back - even if it is not accurate! But I also kind of understand your points.

    I see suppression as a "participation award", especially considering aim punch is in the game. Sometimes the "rewards bad players" argument is said regarding suppression. I don't agree with this perspective as if you did hit the enemy, it would be far more useful. I mean if you hit him, you permanently reduce his health, make him bleed, make him have higher recoil and sway, aim punch him, etc.. and you can actually kill him. Compared to this some temporary screenshake and blur doesn't seem much... So if suppression is 1 unit of 'reward' for missing, actually hitting is 25+ units of 'reward'. (Regarding grenades, this is a whole different story OFC...) So yes, the game does give you something for missing a shot, but it can be seen as a reward for actually doing something. Because if you compare the effect of missing to hitting, what you get for a miss does not seem like much of a reward for me...



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  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    I get the intent Whip but shooting penalties to Lean wouldn't be my way of going about it, seems like its adding randomness to ADS, don't think we want that. Possibly slowing down the action of leaning? and limiting to one lean per/2 seconds (just an example).. kind of like jumping had (so one cant spam lean)... also getting rid of that ability to stay in lean and make angle adjustments, by moving.

    Levente, were playing a video game, nor is this a simulator, real life arguments dont hold value when trying to achieve the best gameplay possible... and again its not about totally eliminating features but have them make sense.
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  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    edited December 2018
    As a side note, with the Army actually investing into eSports, it would be nice if their own game was a legitimate skill based competitive game. It doesn't need to be super fast like CS or overly structured like R6:S. However, it needs to be a game that rewards skill over randomness and makes every action and feature have a purpose rather than to just look cool or to flatten the skill curve to make the game more accessible. Those types of things may work in the console market, but the PC market demands high skill competitive games.

    Not sure what the army's intent is with video games, is it just for publicity? or to make a great game? If its just to advertise you'd be a million times better sponsoring a pro CSGO team, with uniforms etc. participating in Major eSports events with millions viewing and many more watching replays, highlights ETC, than making their own game.

    But since there is a game, lets make it better.
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  • LWOF_BrOkenArrowLWOF_BrOkenArrow Posts: 300Player
    edited December 2018
    I've consistently been playing AAPG over the past couple months, there are certainly things that I feel need to change to make this game great. However, I'm going to just list three things that I find to be the most annoying about this game. These are the three things that most make me not want to play the game at times.

    1. Grenades -
    Grenades are tossed all over the place without care. CQB maps are loaded with spam. Grenades have a kill range of 5 meters. Flashes have an unavoidable blinding range of 5 meters. Here's a picture of what a room with a 5 meter radius looks like:
    6vq4.png
    If a player lands a grenade directly in the middle of this room, everyone who doesn't have something to hide behind will die or be flashed no matter if they turn away or not. This is a decently large area. From there, with a grenade, the damage distance tapers off up to 13 meters (if you're within 12 meters you will get hurt). Here's what that looks like:
    6vq8.png
    With flash bangs, once you are outside of that 5 meter radius, turning away greatly dampens the effect.

    Why it's bad: The kill and injury radius are both huge. A grenade has an injury area of 374 square meters and a kill area of 78 square meters (total impact area = 452 square meters). The kill radius allows for easy flashes and grenade kills from poorly thrown grenades. A grenade that lands 5 meters away from an enemy should not reward a kill on a 100% health enemy. It rewards spam and not taking care to cook and place grenades well. Also with the injury radius being so large, injured players are easily taken out by a grenade that lands extremely far away. Again, rewarding spam and poorly thrown grenades.
    Flashbangs are similar in that many interior rooms can be quite small. If a player doesn't cook a flash and have it blow up with the enemy having no time to turn away then they shouldn't get rewarded unless the flash lands pretty much dead on the guy. Currently grenades reward low skill play.

    How it should change:
    Frags: Cut the kill radius for frag grenades by half. Cut the injury radius by half. Reward players who land good frags and not poorly thrown spam grenades. Players will also spam less since the chances of getting a blindly thrown uncooked/partly cooked grenade to land a kill or seriously hurt an enemy will greatly decrease.
    Flashes: Increase the full blind radius for flashes that land in front of a player. Decrease the radius to 2 or 2.5 meters for if a player turns away. This lower radius will reward players who land a perfect flash, but give players who are being flashed a chance to turn away if the flash is poorly thrown. Looking at a flash should have a bigger effect no matter where it lands.


    2-Lack of Penalties
    Currently you have no penalties for movement or leaning with ADS.

    Why it's bad: Movement penalties have more to do with skill curve. Making it harder to shoot on the move makes it more difficult to learn how to hit shots well. Players either need to learn how to overcome the penalty or stop and fire without penalty. No penalty in leaning is a worse issue. The game is pretty much lean wars. Everyone leans out from cover exposing as little of their body as possible (sometimes even just the very tip of their head) and fires away. There's no reason not to use this tactic because there's no penalty. A player who exposes their full body when they can easily just lean around cover is putting themselves at a big disadvantage.

    What should change: There are really only two types of penalties you can add for both of these things that make sense in the game. One is an accuracy cone that makes you inaccurate. This game typically has never had accuracy cones with ADS, so it would be a very tough change, but one I'd be interested to see how it would work (basically standing still gives no penalty, moving and leaning gives a penalty). Another option is to increase sway when you lean or move. You can even do both and find the right balance somewhere. Another point here is that if you were to implement a movement penalty and not a leaning penalty then you'd create a huge advantage for defenders. Defends should have to make a choice of suffering a penalty or exposing more of their body to incoming fire. For the realism guys, these penalties also make sense. Moving and leaning both create a less stable firing position and would make it more difficult to fire with perfect accuracy.


    3- Suppression + Aim Punch
    We've discussed this a million times. Personally, I hate both. I'm not going to even bother writing a big paragraph about it.

    Honorable mention to snipers and DM rifles being a joke to use (i.e. too easy). Easy solution: The higher the zoom the greater the sway (this is how AA2 did it). AAPG currently has identical sway for higher zoom sights vs. 1x sights.

    There are obviously more things that I think can change (I've made other threads), but I'd rather just focus on those things for now.

    1. Grenades and flashes are fine as is.
    2. The game is punishing enough as is. I don't see the need to implement any penalties/drawbacks for any current features/aspects/content in the game. Only thing I'd consider is nerfing the SCAR to require 2 hits to the head instead of one, at full health (but even that's debatable).
    3. Suppression and scope-wobble is fine are fine as is

    . I, along with others, have already stated numerous reasons why this is in other threads - so I'll avoid writing a "big paragraph about it" here.

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  • Duke_AudiDuke_Audi Posts: 314Beta Tester
    Two words, BUNNY HOPPING! I hate, hate, HATE hoppers!!!
    Is this real world? Heck NO!
    Is it an effective tactic in game? Must be because so many players use it.
    When repeated jumping is removed then I'll think about these other issues.
    (Like what I think or say means anything...)
    556127a3323e2cfd0355aaa34b6e0b63-full.jpg
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,413Beta Tester
    "Avoiding getting hit or killed by grenades that aren't even intended for you isn't a skill."

    OF COURSE IT'S A SKILL! How is being free to be unaware of your surroundings somehow a good thing?

    I don't agree there's no room for debate (or improvement...) on these issues. Understanding weapon parameters, timing and battlespace geometry is DEFINITELY a skill and the more variables you have to calculate, the more it weeds out the lower skilled players and puts a winner on top.

    The argument I keep hearing - and disagreeing with - is that these things lower skill requirements. What they do, IMO, is veer off from what some players think match their own core strengths....snap shot reflexes and putting a dot on a target. That's only a small part of the competencies you can have in a simulated 3d environment. I maintain some of the points made in that direction risk making the game EASIER, not more difficult.
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  • jgvn11jgvn11 Posts: 44Player
    edited December 2018
    Just pointing out something for grenades, in real life the kill radius is 5m, and casualty radius is 15m. And having a grenades going off near you definitely gives you a "fog of war" sense, with the concussion wave and debris going everywhere.
    Also, if a grenades goes off inside a building/room, the concussion is greater.
  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 624Player
    Duke_Audi wrote: »
    Two words, BUNNY HOPPING! I hate, hate, HATE hoppers!!!
    Is this real world? Heck NO!
    Is it an effective tactic in game? Must be because so many players use it.
    When repeated jumping is removed then I'll think about these other issues.
    (Like what I think or say means anything...)

    Bunny hopping doesn't exist in AAPG.

    I've consistently been playing AAPG over the past couple months, there are certainly things that I feel need to change to make this game great. However, I'm going to just list three things that I find to be the most annoying about this game. These are the three things that most make me not want to play the game at times.

    1. Grenades -
    Grenades are tossed all over the place without care. CQB maps are loaded with spam. Grenades have a kill range of 5 meters. Flashes have an unavoidable blinding range of 5 meters. Here's a picture of what a room with a 5 meter radius looks like:
    6vq4.png
    If a player lands a grenade directly in the middle of this room, everyone who doesn't have something to hide behind will die or be flashed no matter if they turn away or not. This is a decently large area. From there, with a grenade, the damage distance tapers off up to 13 meters (if you're within 12 meters you will get hurt). Here's what that looks like:
    6vq8.png
    With flash bangs, once you are outside of that 5 meter radius, turning away greatly dampens the effect.

    Why it's bad: The kill and injury radius are both huge. A grenade has an injury area of 374 square meters and a kill area of 78 square meters (total impact area = 452 square meters). The kill radius allows for easy flashes and grenade kills from poorly thrown grenades. A grenade that lands 5 meters away from an enemy should not reward a kill on a 100% health enemy. It rewards spam and not taking care to cook and place grenades well. Also with the injury radius being so large, injured players are easily taken out by a grenade that lands extremely far away. Again, rewarding spam and poorly thrown grenades.
    Flashbangs are similar in that many interior rooms can be quite small. If a player doesn't cook a flash and have it blow up with the enemy having no time to turn away then they shouldn't get rewarded unless the flash lands pretty much dead on the guy. Currently grenades reward low skill play.

    How it should change:
    Frags: Cut the kill radius for frag grenades by half. Cut the injury radius by half. Reward players who land good frags and not poorly thrown spam grenades. Players will also spam less since the chances of getting a blindly thrown uncooked/partly cooked grenade to land a kill or seriously hurt an enemy will greatly decrease.
    Flashes: Increase the full blind radius for flashes that land in front of a player. Decrease the radius to 2 or 2.5 meters for if a player turns away. This lower radius will reward players who land a perfect flash, but give players who are being flashed a chance to turn away if the flash is poorly thrown. Looking at a flash should have a bigger effect no matter where it lands.


    2-Lack of Penalties
    Currently you have no penalties for movement or leaning with ADS.

    Why it's bad: Movement penalties have more to do with skill curve. Making it harder to shoot on the move makes it more difficult to learn how to hit shots well. Players either need to learn how to overcome the penalty or stop and fire without penalty. No penalty in leaning is a worse issue. The game is pretty much lean wars. Everyone leans out from cover exposing as little of their body as possible (sometimes even just the very tip of their head) and fires away. There's no reason not to use this tactic because there's no penalty. A player who exposes their full body when they can easily just lean around cover is putting themselves at a big disadvantage.

    What should change: There are really only two types of penalties you can add for both of these things that make sense in the game. One is an accuracy cone that makes you inaccurate. This game typically has never had accuracy cones with ADS, so it would be a very tough change, but one I'd be interested to see how it would work (basically standing still gives no penalty, moving and leaning gives a penalty). Another option is to increase sway when you lean or move. You can even do both and find the right balance somewhere. Another point here is that if you were to implement a movement penalty and not a leaning penalty then you'd create a huge advantage for defenders. Defends should have to make a choice of suffering a penalty or exposing more of their body to incoming fire. For the realism guys, these penalties also make sense. Moving and leaning both create a less stable firing position and would make it more difficult to fire with perfect accuracy.


    3- Suppression + Aim Punch
    We've discussed this a million times. Personally, I hate both. I'm not going to even bother writing a big paragraph about it.

    Honorable mention to snipers and DM rifles being a joke to use (i.e. too easy). Easy solution: The higher the zoom the greater the sway (this is how AA2 did it). AAPG currently has identical sway for higher zoom sights vs. 1x sights.

    There are obviously more things that I think can change (I've made other threads), but I'd rather just focus on those things for now.

    1. Grenades and flashes are fine as is.
    2. The game is punishing enough as is. I don't see the need to implement any penalties/drawbacks for any current features/aspects/content in the game. Only thing I'd consider is nerfing the SCAR to require 2 hits to the head instead of one, at full health (but even that's debatable).
    3. Suppression and scope-wobble is fine are fine as is

    . I, along with others, have already stated numerous reasons why this is in other threads - so I'll avoid writing a "big paragraph about it" here.

    If nothing else, Whiplash clearly demonstrated, with visuals, that nades and flashes are not fine as-is. They're a low-skill, and often no-skill, part of the game. The video of the flash I posted above is another example. If his intent was to force me to move to my left, it's a good flash, but it doesn't need to blind me to do so. That flash shouldn't have blinded me at all. Incidentally, the grenade that killed me was perfect, but I wouldn't have been in that spot if not for the flash inexplicably blinding me. Grenades and flashes can be cooked and placed exactly where you want them in this game. Why are you so set on rewarding bad play? What reward is there for me to put a flash right on someone when I can just lob it behind them and get the same effect? I just can't figure out why you want a dumbed down game.

    I think some sort of limitations on leaning are worth talking about. I'd be more in favor of further reducing the speed or possibly reducing the frequency. I'm not in favor of adding in more RNG. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say the game is punishing enough as is.

    As far as suppression goes, many of us have again made detailed posts about the topic with alternatative suggestions with well-supported arguments. Why don't you comment on those? What would be wrong with an initial aim punch followed by a period of invulnerability from further aim punch? What would be wrong with having some blurring at the edge of the screen combined with a sound effect to represent suppression? Why do you insist that a blinding effect is the way to go?

    Your post basically says nothing at all. Contribute something.
  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 1,993Player
    edited December 2018
    I just had a thought that maybe could work for suppression. Instead of double vision and blurry everywhere, why not tunnel vision? As your suppression builds more and more, your peripheral vision gets smaller and smaller, but your center vision always stays clear.

    Why is this better? Simple, the player can always see the center of their screen which allows them to return fire. However, it also has a benefit to the player doing the suppression. Since the player has tunnel vision and is focusing on their enemy to try to fight back, they've completely lost their ability to scan the battlefield. So while he's focusing on trying to kill the guy who's shooting at him, another teammate flanks around and kills him. That's suppression. This solution would make it so that the suppression has no major impact on one-on-one fire fights since you can still clearly see your enemy. It would serve its purpose and add the sought after effect.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 624Player
    I just had a thought that maybe could work for suppression. Instead of double vision and blurry everywhere, why not tunnel vision? As your suppression builds more and more, your peripheral vision gets smaller and smaller, but your center vision always stays clear.

    Why is this better? Simple, the player can always see the center of their screen which allows them to return fire. However, it also has a benefit to the player doing the suppression. Since the player has tunnel vision and is focusing on their enemy to try to fight back, they've completely lost their ability to scan the battlefield. So while he's focusing on trying to kill the guy who's shooting at him, another teammate flanks around and kills him. That's suppression. This solution would make it so that the suppression has no major impact on one-on-one fire fights since you can still clearly see your enemy. It would serve its purpose and add the sought after effect.

    That's definitely an improvement on the current system.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,413Beta Tester
    "Your post basically says nothing at all. Contribute something."

    He contributed his opinion.
    ______

    This has been a test of the emergency flame-fest system. Please do not adjust your set.
  • LWOF_BrOkenArrowLWOF_BrOkenArrow Posts: 300Player
    edited December 2018
    Duke_Audi wrote: »
    Two words, BUNNY HOPPING! I hate, hate, HATE hoppers!!!
    Is this real world? Heck NO!
    Is it an effective tactic in game? Must be because so many players use it.
    When repeated jumping is removed then I'll think about these other issues.
    (Like what I think or say means anything...)

    Bunny hopping doesn't exist in AAPG.

    I've consistently been playing AAPG over the past couple months, there are certainly things that I feel need to change to make this game great. However, I'm going to just list three things that I find to be the most annoying about this game. These are the three things that most make me not want to play the game at times.

    1. Grenades -
    Grenades are tossed all over the place without care. CQB maps are loaded with spam. Grenades have a kill range of 5 meters. Flashes have an unavoidable blinding range of 5 meters. Here's a picture of what a room with a 5 meter radius looks like:
    6vq4.png
    If a player lands a grenade directly in the middle of this room, everyone who doesn't have something to hide behind will die or be flashed no matter if they turn away or not. This is a decently large area. From there, with a grenade, the damage distance tapers off up to 13 meters (if you're within 12 meters you will get hurt). Here's what that looks like:
    6vq8.png
    With flash bangs, once you are outside of that 5 meter radius, turning away greatly dampens the effect.

    Why it's bad: The kill and injury radius are both huge. A grenade has an injury area of 374 square meters and a kill area of 78 square meters (total impact area = 452 square meters). The kill radius allows for easy flashes and grenade kills from poorly thrown grenades. A grenade that lands 5 meters away from an enemy should not reward a kill on a 100% health enemy. It rewards spam and not taking care to cook and place grenades well. Also with the injury radius being so large, injured players are easily taken out by a grenade that lands extremely far away. Again, rewarding spam and poorly thrown grenades.
    Flashbangs are similar in that many interior rooms can be quite small. If a player doesn't cook a flash and have it blow up with the enemy having no time to turn away then they shouldn't get rewarded unless the flash lands pretty much dead on the guy. Currently grenades reward low skill play.

    How it should change:
    Frags: Cut the kill radius for frag grenades by half. Cut the injury radius by half. Reward players who land good frags and not poorly thrown spam grenades. Players will also spam less since the chances of getting a blindly thrown uncooked/partly cooked grenade to land a kill or seriously hurt an enemy will greatly decrease.
    Flashes: Increase the full blind radius for flashes that land in front of a player. Decrease the radius to 2 or 2.5 meters for if a player turns away. This lower radius will reward players who land a perfect flash, but give players who are being flashed a chance to turn away if the flash is poorly thrown. Looking at a flash should have a bigger effect no matter where it lands.


    2-Lack of Penalties
    Currently you have no penalties for movement or leaning with ADS.

    Why it's bad: Movement penalties have more to do with skill curve. Making it harder to shoot on the move makes it more difficult to learn how to hit shots well. Players either need to learn how to overcome the penalty or stop and fire without penalty. No penalty in leaning is a worse issue. The game is pretty much lean wars. Everyone leans out from cover exposing as little of their body as possible (sometimes even just the very tip of their head) and fires away. There's no reason not to use this tactic because there's no penalty. A player who exposes their full body when they can easily just lean around cover is putting themselves at a big disadvantage.

    What should change: There are really only two types of penalties you can add for both of these things that make sense in the game. One is an accuracy cone that makes you inaccurate. This game typically has never had accuracy cones with ADS, so it would be a very tough change, but one I'd be interested to see how it would work (basically standing still gives no penalty, moving and leaning gives a penalty). Another option is to increase sway when you lean or move. You can even do both and find the right balance somewhere. Another point here is that if you were to implement a movement penalty and not a leaning penalty then you'd create a huge advantage for defenders. Defends should have to make a choice of suffering a penalty or exposing more of their body to incoming fire. For the realism guys, these penalties also make sense. Moving and leaning both create a less stable firing position and would make it more difficult to fire with perfect accuracy.


    3- Suppression + Aim Punch
    We've discussed this a million times. Personally, I hate both. I'm not going to even bother writing a big paragraph about it.

    Honorable mention to snipers and DM rifles being a joke to use (i.e. too easy). Easy solution: The higher the zoom the greater the sway (this is how AA2 did it). AAPG currently has identical sway for higher zoom sights vs. 1x sights.

    There are obviously more things that I think can change (I've made other threads), but I'd rather just focus on those things for now.

    1. Grenades and flashes are fine as is.
    2. The game is punishing enough as is. I don't see the need to implement any penalties/drawbacks for any current features/aspects/content in the game. Only thing I'd consider is nerfing the SCAR to require 2 hits to the head instead of one, at full health (but even that's debatable).
    3. Suppression and scope-wobble is fine are fine as is

    . I, along with others, have already stated numerous reasons why this is in other threads - so I'll avoid writing a "big paragraph about it" here.

    If nothing else, Whiplash clearly demonstrated, with visuals, that nades and flashes are not fine as-is. They're a low-skill, and often no-skill, part of the game. The video of the flash I posted above is another example. If his intent was to force me to move to my left, it's a good flash, but it doesn't need to blind me to do so. That flash shouldn't have blinded me at all. Incidentally, the grenade that killed me was perfect, but I wouldn't have been in that spot if not for the flash inexplicably blinding me. Grenades and flashes can be cooked and placed exactly where you want them in this game. Why are you so set on rewarding bad play? What reward is there for me to put a flash right on someone when I can just lob it behind them and get the same effect? I just can't figure out why you want a dumbed down game.

    I think some sort of limitations on leaning are worth talking about. I'd be more in favor of further reducing the speed or possibly reducing the frequency. I'm not in favor of adding in more RNG. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say the game is punishing enough as is.

    As far as suppression goes, many of us have again made detailed posts about the topic with alternatative suggestions with well-supported arguments. Why don't you comment on those? What would be wrong with an initial aim punch followed by a period of invulnerability from further aim punch? What would be wrong with having some blurring at the edge of the screen combined with a sound effect to represent suppression? Why do you insist that a blinding effect is the way to go?

    Your post basically says nothing at all. Contribute something.

    :confounded: Here we go again

    It seems as if every game has its whiners who want to complain about features that they don't like and argue for a complete make-over to their liking from the ground-up, as is the case here.

    Whiplash didn't demonstrate that nade and flashes "are not fine as-is". Yes, he claimed that the current stats for nades and flashes are OP, that the radius rewards even "poorly thrown" grenades. Yet if a grenade is truly "poorly thrown" than it will have little to no effect against its target(s). If grenades and flashes were truly over-powered they would've been nerfed by now...

    Looking at your flash-vid post, if you look carefully you'll see that the flash-grenade was thrown to your right and (judging by the speed and direction) landed on the right side of the room behind the couch/line-of-chairs you took cover at. In other words, the flash itself was solid. Flashes are meant for tight-spaces like that anyway.

    I'm not surprised you think I'm rewarding "bad-play" when you fail to see just how good these plays are. Your arguments are one-sided, not taking into account the people who use the flashes and grenades you want nerfed, or why they use them. Flashes are used for campers, where they typically already have the LOS advantage (line-of-sight) and can shoot first before the attacker can establish-said LOS. Grenades also help combat-campers. These both contribute to an aggressive, and therefore more active style of gameplay. Cutting the range in half means the attacker has to try even harder against the camper.

    Leaning is solid, reason it's being used is b/c it's helping players peak around corners -- serving the purpose it was meant to serve. Negating the qualities of a feature with a penalty will only serve to degrade said feature and defeat the purpose of it being added in the first place. The game is "punishing enough as is" b/c it already penalizes players on numerous aspects of game-play.

    Viewing the large map, throwing grenades, and reloading all leave you extremely vulnerable for a large period of time. Running around the map makes you much easier to hear vs. prone or crouch-walk.

    Regarding the suppresion argument, I quote myself and say
    "The flaw I see in the anti-suppression argument is that y'all think skill is being able to aim and shoot without any other variables/distractions. That is not skill at all, that is simply point and click and anyone can do that.
    There needs to be things like suppression to keep players in check, and cause them to require more effort and thinking when getting a kill. This is exactly what suppression does.
    Skill isn't reacting to what you can already control (aim, movement) but what you can't (suppression, recoil, bleeding, damage being taken, chance/random encounters, enemy movements/actions)."
    Teamwork is essential, it gives the enemy other people to shoot at



    P0asKE2.jpg
  • doogle!doogle! Posts: 605Player
    Duke_Audi wrote: »
    Two words, BUNNY HOPPING! I hate, hate, HATE hoppers!!!
    Is this real world? Heck NO!
    Is it an effective tactic in game? Must be because so many players use it.
    When repeated jumping is removed then I'll think about these other issues.
    (Like what I think or say means anything...)

    Sliding on your knee pad while running full speed also isn't real world.
    Neither is shooting bullets out of your eyeballs.
    Neither is bandaging a mortal head wound with an ace bandage.

    Just sayin, it' s a game.

    The best (and only feasible way IMO) to combat jumping...cause it's not bunny hopping...is to add a short cool down to some sort of impaired accuracy after pressing spacebar. Think AA2 days, the green accuracy bar next to your pawn indicator. Near a teammate you had better accuracy. Prone, you had better accuracy.


    Levente, you're argument only works if we assume the target remains stationary.

    Arrow, the primary problem with lean is that our pawns don't shoot out of their guns (PUBG), they shoot out of their eyeballs.
  • LWOF_BrOkenArrowLWOF_BrOkenArrow Posts: 300Player
    doogle! wrote: »
    Duke_Audi wrote: »
    Two words, BUNNY HOPPING! I hate, hate, HATE hoppers!!!
    Is this real world? Heck NO!
    Is it an effective tactic in game? Must be because so many players use it.
    When repeated jumping is removed then I'll think about these other issues.
    (Like what I think or say means anything...)

    Sliding on your knee pad while running full speed also isn't real world.
    Neither is shooting bullets out of your eyeballs.
    Neither is bandaging a mortal head wound with an ace bandage.

    Just sayin, it' s a game.

    The best (and only feasible way IMO) to combat jumping...cause it's not bunny hopping...is to add a short cool down to some sort of impaired accuracy after pressing spacebar. Think AA2 days, the green accuracy bar next to your pawn indicator. Near a teammate you had better accuracy. Prone, you had better accuracy.


    Levente, you're argument only works if we assume the target remains stationary.

    Arrow, the primary problem with lean is that our pawns don't shoot out of their guns (PUBG), they shoot out of their eyeballs.

    that issue was present even before lean was added,
    Teamwork is essential, it gives the enemy other people to shoot at



    P0asKE2.jpg
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