AA5 Discussion Thread (Renamed)

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  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 20
    BTW, I'll throw out one more important factor for AA5. Simple and clean maps > Really pretty maps. People don't care about a few pieces of trash on the floor or some random other objects that are put into the map to give it a more realistic touch. High res textures and the like aren't super important either, not at the cost of frame rate. This isn't a single player game. When it comes to graphics, the most important thing is frame rate. Optimize, optimize, optimize! If people can't hit a high FPS out the box then you will fail. Too many MP games try to make their maps look like something out of some AAA single player game. Don't fall for that trap! Sure, it should look good, but it doesn't need to go overboard on looking amazing. Fire up some rigs that you'd expect to be on the lower end of the system requirements scale and test out the FPS extensively.

    Obviously net code is a huge one as well. There's a channel here on YouTube where they compare net codes for various games. https://youtube.com/channel/UCP7QY6L5pvmm0-stL-pNFrw

    You want to be on the better end of this spectrum if you want any success. Some people are starting to rip into Apex after it's huge take off/hype because of how poorly optimized it is with the netcode.
    IVb3H8Q.jpg

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  • .!.dgodfather.!.dgodfather Posts: 399Player
    B)
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    Make AA Great Again!
  • [TAW]Avguste[TAW]Avguste Posts: 115Player
    Didnt read the whole thread, however I will say that there is one way for the Army and its devs to even hope of bringing the game back from its death row (current number of players) to what it was back in the day: go back to what AA2 was, same tactical gameplay as AA2. No run and gun......
    Will it happen? I hope so.....

  • .!.dgodfather.!.dgodfather Posts: 399Player
    AAPG is a bad COD/BF4 clone in terms of that. Presenting a more tactical experience would be great, but I don't know how it would sell it today's market. Most shooters are run and gun. That being said, I prefer the tactical experience as well. I'm sure there are plenty who do or are just waiting for that kind of AA experience again.
    Fragweiser Website
    Make AA Great Again!
  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 21
    AAPG is SLOW compared to other games. I honestly don't see how much more you can do without turning it into a snoozefest. Sure, let's have 7 minute rounds again, that'll really get people to download the game.

    In my time in the AA community, one thing I've found is that many dedicated AA players don't branch out to other games much. I try to play a variety of games, and I'll tell you this game is one of the slowest out there. COD? BF? Both play way faster than this. CS plays faster than this.

    What exactly do people even mean by tactical? CS plays faster than AAPG and I can tell you that it's very tactical; especially judging by its high level competitive community. Does tactical just mean slow? Or does it mean a game where every action has weight? You'll never have a game that plays very tactically in pubs. You'll always have Rambos out there who will go solo and, if they're skilled enough, wipe the floor with the opposing team. Real tactical game play comes in competitive play. Even AAPG in a real competitive match isn't a run and gun Rambo game. Even in AA2 it was easy to rack up high KDRs by going solo and playing a run and gun style, I did it all the time.

    I personally want to see faster movement, slightly quicker times to kill, but slower action speeds. It would drastically change how the game plays for the better IMO. The gameplay in AAPG has a huge component of grenade spam and leaning corners. If you want a more tactical game, fix those issues.
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  • .!.dgodfather.!.dgodfather Posts: 399Player
    For me, tactical in terms of mission planning, multiple routes, both choke points and roads less traveled, larger maps, with more open route patterns, more equipment and attachments, defined roles, etc. e.g. ala-AA2 or AA3 and yes longer rounds would be a part of that. That's why I say, I can't see how that would sell. Everything is fast action these days, but trends tend to go forward and backward throughout history. So would AA2 style game-play work today? I don't know...
    Fragweiser Website
    Make AA Great Again!
  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 21
    Mission planning never works in any game. R6 is the closest and that's more of a pre-planning phase where the defense sets up the area to be defended with their gadgets while assault tries to figure out where the objective is.

    Maps, you're either going to have a game with massive maps that play slowly or smaller maps that play more quickly. I can tell you that most people prefer small to medium maps that feature a more CQB style even in the AAPG community. Maps in general need a huge improvement in the next game, but creating a map that has open routes and choke points is something that doesn't go together. Very open maps create issues where players can appear from anywhere (take PUBG as a good example). Sure you can filter players to certain areas, but those would just be objectives away. Typically a good map has a few paths that lead to the objective as well a a central choke point and a few areas that allow players to rotate in between the different paths (the famed figure 8 pattern). Getting flanked usually involves your team losing a part of the map or just a plain failure in tactics. CS does this well, AA needs to adopt a similar style, maybe just make the maps slightly bigger.

    Equipment, squad roles, etc. don't really make the game play more tactical, but they would be a welcome addition from the authenticity and content standpoint .

    Also, quite honestly, I never see slow paced games making a comeback. It just won't happen. People don't want to spend an hour or more playing a 10 round match. No one wants to die and get stuck sitting around for 7 minutes waiting for the round to end. We put up with it 15 years ago when there was less competition and this was all we knew. Part of Battle Royale's success is that when you die you can jump back into the game and in essence, you're always playing. Respawn games, same idea. Round based games need fast rounds to compete these days. That's why CS has 3 minute rounds and R6 rounds are very fast too. People aren't going to come home after work to fire up a game to play 30% of the time and spectate the other 70%. Younger players have so many options and are so impatient, that they're not going to want to play a game where if they're not that good they're just sitting around. Even in AA2 days, the most popular maps were the faster ones. The old school guys who miss the so-called glory days of tactical shooters and 10 minute rounds are going to need to come to the realization that that kind of gameplay is extremely niche at this point. Just like arena shooters and RTS games (that aren't StarCraft or Civilization-not really RTS), slow round based games are a thing of the past. Although to be honest, arena shooters have a better chance at making a comeback.
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  • .!.dgodfather.!.dgodfather Posts: 399Player
    edited February 21
    tac·ti·calDictionary result for tactical
    /ˈtaktək(ə)l/Submit
    adjective
    relating to or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end.
    "as a tactical officer in the field he had no equal"
    (of bombing or weapons) done or for use in immediate support of military or naval operations.
    (of a person or their actions) showing adroit planning; aiming at an end beyond the immediate action.

    Weapons and attachments along with roles certainly can make a game more tactical (AA2 excelled with that). I read the above like this, for squad A you put a sniper up on a hill while a the remaining members of the squad rush a path lower in elevation up the middle, while squad B hits off to the right for the flank route. I'm not saying it isn't done in AAPG, it just isn't done nearly as well when you think of much larger maps. AAPG tries to do that inside of a 3 bedroom house. It seems fast because the maps are small and poor in design I'm guessing...

    Fragweiser Website
    Make AA Great Again!
  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 21
    tac·ti·calDictionary result for tactical
    /ˈtaktək(ə)l/Submit
    adjective
    relating to or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end.
    "as a tactical officer in the field he had no equal"
    (of bombing or weapons) done or for use in immediate support of military or naval operations.
    (of a person or their actions) showing adroit planning; aiming at an end beyond the immediate action.

    Weapons and attachments along with roles certainly can make a game more tactical (AA2 excelled with that). I read the above like this, for squad A you put a sniper up on a hill while a the remaining members of the squad rush a path lower in elevation up the middle, while squad B hits off to the right for the flank route. I'm not saying it isn't done in AAPG, it just isn't done nearly as well when you think of much larger maps. AAPG tries to do that inside of a 3 bedroom house. It seems fast because the maps are small and poor in design I'm guessing...

    There's a reason why Inner Hospital accounts for 80% of the gameplay in this game... AA2 maps weren't perfect (in fact a lot of them weren't great by modern standards), but they made for way better gameplay vs. those in AAPG.
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  • .!.dgodfather.!.dgodfather Posts: 399Player
    Inner is too small IMO. Not a fan of the layout or design. The whole map (outside as well) in consideration isn't bad. It's pretty big. I would argue that AAPG is only slow because character movement and medics are clunky.
    Fragweiser Website
    Make AA Great Again!
  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    I hate Inner, but it's the only stock map that has a design that people have taken to. Full hospital was designed to be a VIP map and for whatever reason that never happened.
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  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 21
    BTW, the things that I will say that make the game less tactical (if that's what you want to call it)?

    1. No/too light penalties for all/most actions. Biggest of these is leaning.
    2. Grenades are too powerful. Staying near a teammate is a death sentence. Grenades can easily make up for bad tactics. Spam, spam, spam away.
    3. Snipers & DMRs are too easy to use, risk of using from closer ranges is negligible and too easy to avoid enemy fire. In older AA games you were forced to deploy the bi pod for stability, which meant slow get away/easy target.
    4. Movement speeds are too low, which allows anyone in a defensive position to pick off head shots and forces players into hiding because moving between cover can be too dangerous.
    5. Revives reduce penalties for mistakes/dying. Allows players to play recklessly with less risk as long as their enemy is far enough away that they won't get secured.
    6. Self Bandaging mechanic, not only looks stupid, but allows players to heal themselves and therefore doesn't impact lone wolfing. Having it so that teammates can only heal each other (regardless of a medic class) forces players to stay near teammates if they want to avoid bleed damage.
    7. Bleeding is too harsh. The high bleed damage forces players to stop what their doing in order to bandage. We get to watch players have to bandage themselves up even during fire fights. This can effectively ruin any coordinated effort by bringing everything to a halt for a few moments. Bleed damage should be lowered so that it is only a concern after a fight unless you have like 1 hp.
    8. Action speeds are too fast. That is, reloading, changing weapons. Goes with #1. Running out of ammo isn't too big of a deal if you can reload in 2 seconds. Makes having two weapons almost pointless, makes switching to pistol unnecessary. Switching to a grenade when you know an enemy is nearby is less risky, etc. Making actions less risky allows players to more easily act like a one man army.
    9. Players aren't segmented into roles. Everyone pretty much does the same thing (everything) except maybe snipers. When you can do everything, you don't need your team as much, especially if you're better than everyone else. The only difference between roles in AAPG is what gun a player uses. That's why successful games these days have been more implementing hero and class type systems.
    10. Maps. We've discussed to death.

    I'm sure there are others.
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  • .!.dgodfather.!.dgodfather Posts: 399Player
    Good stuff. I don't have time to read it all. What I do see is that revives are a virus. 1 player goes down = 2 players or more, dead. Body camping is the only smart thing to do quite honestly. When everyone is a medic, that only makes the virus spread. AA3 had a good counter-balance in being able to kill a downed player from the enemy side. People would still body camp, but there is a better chance that people wanted the credit of the kill, which you did not get until they were dead. I'm told that type of thing should have never been in the game and will likely not come back, but it was the only real way to balance a revive feature that I've seen. If it isn't coming back, then health regeneration (over a long time) should be instituted with eliminating the ability to revive someone. There are more problems than this with revive, but it's the quickest I can post about now.
    Fragweiser Website
    Make AA Great Again!
  • KULA_plKULA_pl Posts: 5Player
    This is simple.... AA 2.8.5 @ new Unreal Engine B)
  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 26
    KULA_pl wrote: »
    This is simple.... AA 2.8.5 @ new Unreal Engine B)

    2.3 was best version. Even still, I don't know if a faithful port of AA2 on UE4 would sell in today's market.

    Game needs to be:
    Smooth & Responsive
    Competition Ready
    Authentic
    Immersive

    Needs to have:
    Good net code
    Defined and unique squad roles (roles shouldn't just feature a different gun)
    Quality server controls & easy to setup matches
    Skill curve - Easy to jump in, hard to master
    Balance - Goes along with skill curve. Actions should have positive and negative aspects. Using a zoomed scope should have draw backs vs. 1x so that we don't have ACOG wars like the earlier versions of AAPG and so that snipers aren't so OP like they currently are.
    Training - Everyone I talk to about the original AA still talks about how you had to go through training and how they miss it.
    Smarter medical system (more for active players, downed players should be an after thought)
    Maps that fit both larger and smaller servers and can work competitively (Nothing wrong with pure pub maps if you already have a good competitive set). Back in AA2 we had maps that opened and closed sections based on the server size. Use that if necessary. Also, WRT map times. You can easily customize map times based on the maps. You want longer slower games? There can be maps that fit that. You want fast paced competitive maps? You can have shorter rounds. It can all fit if done right.
    Support for the competitive community
    Great anti-cheat
    More weapon customization -> Sights, attachments, etc. for primary and secondary weapons

    Would be nice to have:
    Character customization
    Unlockable Army Heroes
    Larger weapon set (maybe past US weapons, other branches of the US military?)
    Some sort of economy that teams need to manage through out a game
    Mission editor some time 1-2 years post launch

    That's my summarized list anyway.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
  • KULA_plKULA_pl Posts: 5Player
    KULA_pl wrote: »
    This is simple.... AA 2.8.5 @ new Unreal Engine B)

    2.3 was best version. Even still, I don't know if a faithful port of AA2 on UE4 would sell in today's market.

    Look at Counter Strike all version 1.0, 1.6, Source and Global Offensive this is the same game (maps, guns, game mode) only new engine, and how many milions copy sold on steam. I waiting for good port AA2

  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 26
    KULA_pl wrote: »
    KULA_pl wrote: »
    This is simple.... AA 2.8.5 @ new Unreal Engine B)

    2.3 was best version. Even still, I don't know if a faithful port of AA2 on UE4 would sell in today's market.

    Look at Counter Strike all version 1.0, 1.6, Source and Global Offensive this is the same game (maps, guns, game mode) only new engine, and how many milions copy sold on steam. I waiting for good port AA2

    Huge difference. CS did it version after version. There was no break and they kept on building their player base. AA 2.8.5 came out in like 2008. We're talking over a decade ago. Most AA2 players are in their late 20s+ and almost all of them who are still playing video games have moved on to other franchises. CS still has a huge playerbase who has been around from the old days, through source, and into GO. They've been pumping in young new blood for two decades now. AAPG is mostly older people. How often do you see someone who's even in their teens on a server? It's rare.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
  • KULA_plKULA_pl Posts: 5Player
    Other franchises but we dont have many, ArmAIII, Squad, Insurgency, mayby R6:Siege and BF. When CS player go to other franchises they have COD, Apex Legends, PUBG, Ring of Elysium, Fortnite, GTA etc
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 610Player
    KULA_pl wrote: »
    KULA_pl wrote: »
    This is simple.... AA 2.8.5 @ new Unreal Engine B)

    2.3 was best version. Even still, I don't know if a faithful port of AA2 on UE4 would sell in today's market.

    Look at Counter Strike all version 1.0, 1.6, Source and Global Offensive this is the same game (maps, guns, game mode) only new engine, and how many milions copy sold on steam. I waiting for good port AA2

    Huge difference. CS did it version after version. There was no break and they kept on building their player base. AA 2.8.5 came out in like 2008. We're talking over a decade ago. Most AA2 players are in their late 20s+ and almost all of them who are still playing video games have moved on to other franchises. CS still has a huge playerbase who has been around from the old days, through source, and into GO. They've been pumping in young new blood for two decades now. AAPG is mostly older people. How often do you see someone who's even in their teens on a server? It's rare.

    Now I feel old, thx.
    AAPG is good!
  • ={101st}=Whiplash27={101st}=Whiplash27 Posts: 2,054Player
    edited February 26
    KULA_pl wrote: »
    Other franchises but we dont have many, ArmAIII, Squad, Insurgency, mayby R6:Siege and BF. When CS player go to other franchises they have COD, Apex Legends, PUBG, Ring of Elysium, Fortnite, GTA etc

    Many AA players have/do play CS. A large percentage of gamers aren't walled off into MilSim type games as the only thing they'll play, same goes for higher paced games. Also, BF probably goes in with all the rest, not sure why that would go with games like these. Also, I honestly am not a fan of games like Arma & Squad. R6 is OK, Insurgency was OK. I've played CS, COD, PUBG, GTA and yet here I am.
    I grew up playing games like Doom, Duke 3D, Quake, Half-Life, TFC, and even Counter-Strike before I ever played AA 1.x. There are tons of players who play a variety of games. Certain games stick, others don't. Don't wall people off into certain styles.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
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