AA5 Discussion Thread (Renamed)

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  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 630Player
    Keebler750 wrote: »
    I still don't understand how y'all say there are these great competitive games out there, but you'd rather change America's Army into THOSE games. I just don't get it.

    ?

    I think that has to do with the fact that the people in here praising other titles cannot compete in these titles on the highest level. The best there will stay the best...

    So the best in here also would like to play ESL million dollar tournaments. At keast they dream about it. And broken dreams makes you sad :D


    AAPG is good!
  • LWOF_BrOkenArrowLWOF_BrOkenArrow Posts: 378Player
    Whiplash27 wrote: »
    =IK=Doba= wrote: »
    This Comp Mode might be more successful on PS4/console.

    Maybe its just me but whenever I see some sort of Lan competition or a major of some sort its always on PC.. so ??

    Last time I checked there were only a few hundred PC players actually playing AA:PG, when compared to the thousands on PS4. Comps are more likely to be on PS4 than PC because PS4 is accomplishing the Army's goals -- not PC.

    His point is that of the gaming market in general, not of America's Army. Too many AA fans have this inward view of gaming where America's Army seems to be the only game in the world. In general, the largest competitions in first person shooters are played on PC, period. The largest competitions in general are on PC.

    Ok... I think most, if not everybody here knows that other titles besides AA exist. I just don't see what these other titles have to do with AA. Obviously the claim that most competitions and tournaments happen on PC has nothing to do with AA:PG in the slightest. The fact remains that the PC side is dead (more or less), with it's only population being that of die-hard fans and AA supporters. Whereas the PS4 is continuously getting an influx of new players every month - maybe even every day.
    Army SROTC Cadet



    P0asKE2.jpg
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player

    Ok... I think most, if not everybody here knows that other titles besides AA exist. I just don't see what these other titles have to do with AA. Obviously the claim that most competitions and tournaments happen on PC has nothing to do with AA:PG in the slightest. The fact remains that the PC side is dead (more or less), with it's only population being that of die-hard fans and AA supporters. Whereas the PS4 is continuously getting an influx of new players every month - maybe even every day.

    Last I checked this is a thread about AA5, not AAPG.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
  • LWOF_BrOkenArrowLWOF_BrOkenArrow Posts: 378Player
    edited August 2018
    Whiplash27 wrote: »

    Ok... I think most, if not everybody here knows that other titles besides AA exist. I just don't see what these other titles have to do with AA. Obviously the claim that most competitions and tournaments happen on PC has nothing to do with AA:PG in the slightest. The fact remains that the PC side is dead (more or less), with it's only population being that of die-hard fans and AA supporters. Whereas the PS4 is continuously getting an influx of new players every month - maybe even every day.

    Last I checked this is a thread about AA5, not AAPG.

    It relates to AA5 because if AA:PG was bad for PC what makes you think AA5 will be any different for PC? Honestly, it's as if some of the older players want a game that fits their wants and not that of the majority of those who currently play AA or the Army for that matter. (also PS4).

    Smart people learn from their mistakes, wise people learn from the mistakes of others. I don't care which route the devs take so long as it doesn't involve making poor decisions which made AA:PG virtually unknown to the world until mid 2017 (despite how many years since its release?).
    Army SROTC Cadet



    P0asKE2.jpg
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    edited August 2018
    It seems to me that the Army wants a game that gets as many eyeballs on it as possible. It seems to me that the Army wants a game that goes back to the roots of the series. I don't doubt that AA5 will be on PS4 (or PS5 if it's available at that time). However, we also know that PC will still exist. Facts are that streaming and competition are both more popular on PC in the general gaming world. If you want as many eyes on your game as possible, then having a strong presence in those areas is important on the PC version.
    You joined the world's greatest army to become a graphic artist? Outstanding!
  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 645Player
    Whiplash27 wrote: »
    It seems to me that the Army wants a game that gets as many eyeballs on it as possible. It seems to me that the Army wants a game that goes back to the roots of the series. I don't doubt that AA5 will be on PS4 (or PS5 if it's available at that time). However, we also know that PC will still exist. Facts are that streaming and competition are both more popular on PC in the general gaming world. If you want as many eyes on your game as possible, then having a strong presence in those areas is important on the PC version.

    This. If AA5 is a game that streams well and works to build a competitive scene, it stands a much better chance of competing with other PC FPS titles, especially if properly promoted. As we all know, the primary reason PS4 has so many more players is due to there being fewer alternatives, not because the game suddenly became amazing just on PS4. Also, a better game will retain players on all platforms better. That's what we're (hopefully) all aiming for.
  • testingfivetestingfive Posts: 7Player
    edited August 2018
    I'd stream a more put together version of this game, I actually streamed it in this state a few times but it's tough because I couldn't put together more than an hour without getting completely tilted due to stuff @Hey.I.Have.A.Gun mentioned/showed.

    As for PS4, unless your COD the comp scene will always be bigger/better on PC. Just the way it goes

    Side note; @aaHollywood I read that you unbanned everyone, I was one of the 10+ year vets that got banned by the guy who thought criticism was toxic to the community. Shooting you a DM now

    EDIT: lol my alt with 6 posts has a mild warning. someone get rid of herman already
  • aaHollywoodaaHollywood Posts: 372Player
    I'd stream a more put together version of this game, I actually streamed it in this state a few times but it's tough because I couldn't put together more than an hour without getting completely tilted due to stuff @Hey.I.Have.A.Gun mentioned/showed.

    As for PS4, unless your COD the comp scene will always be bigger/better on PC. Just the way it goes

    Side note; @aaHollywood I read that you unbanned everyone, I was one of the 10+ year vets that got banned by the guy who thought criticism was toxic to the community. Shooting you a DM now

    EDIT: lol my alt with 6 posts has a mild warning. someone get rid of herman already

    Yeah you look unbanned to me lol
  • OICURMT!OICURMT! Posts: 161Beta Tester
    edited August 2018
    Obviously the hit registration issues are the most frustrating, especially using the M24 as you often only get one chance at an enemy. It's ridiculous how many times I landed the shot and didn't get credit for it. And that's just of the videos that I clipped and uploaded. I didn't analyze every shot.

    Nading myself twice because of latency, and possibly a collision issue, was fantastic as well.

    Unless you have the DEMOREC, you can't say much regarding the hit registration. What the server sees and what the client sees are two different sides of the battle.

    I've admin'd WAY too many servers and have compared server vs client POV's on many occasions. I can tell you that sometimes, what you see is not reality (from the server point of view). The server is judge, jury and executioner, PERIOD. It has to reconcile two points of view into a single moment in time. BOTH clients need to reconcile with the server and both clients need to reconile their actions.

    I wrote an article a couple of years ago entitled
    "Cognitive bias - When your beliefs get in the way of reality..."

    It was specifically relating to when people think something happened, but in reality, it didn't (i.e. at the frame rates, the shot missed, you were actually not in the position you thought you were or you didn't really duck in time to avoid the shot), as the ping differential didn't allow this to happen.

    Here is an except from the article, pubished on Dec 24, 2016.
    Last night I was playing and noticed how many people whinge about "I should have killed you" and "No way that was near me" to "This game is f*cked" or "This game is broken"....

    I've never really subscribed to the notion that any game is perfect, as I have limited experience with games, as the AA series is the only FPS I've ever played.

    But, as I believe that Dunning and Kruger were correct in pointing out that a cognitive bias exist in both those with abilities and those without, I thought I'd start a collection of videos as VIEWED BY THE SERVER (i.e. from the demorecs) in order to provide some sort of "oh... so that's what really happened" moment.

    I'll post links to the videos here...

    My apologies in advance to people who may be the the demorecs, I'm using this only to illustrate events as they occurred and not to place labels or denigrate people. I hope this thread can be used to show how easy it would be during fast game play to see events differently than how they occurred.

    BTW: I still think that AA:PG should have some sort of electrodes hooked up to various body parts so that when you actually get hit, you get a shock. I suspect that would cause people to slow down and really concentrate on the game, rather than "Run-N-Gun"... :)

    OIC!

    I have several examples of where one client indicates it's a hit, from the other it's a miss. In the end, the server reconciles the difference and decides. Unfortunately, many people don't activate and publish DEMOREC's. The [TOG] server in Australia did and it stopped a lot of complaining, especially when I took they video footage and sync'd it with the server view, then gave it back to them.

    As for collision issues, I agree with you that the maps could use tweaking, but that's the maps fault and NOT the game. As for latency, well, why comment.

    Penultimately, if you have a good algorithm that does a better job, please forward it to the developers, I guarantee you they will test it and if it's good, probably implement it.

    Lastly, if you don't have a solid understanding of how client-servers work or how network packets are used for games, then the following is probably the best reference you can read.



    For those who think that ping matters, it really doesn't, when you sit down and understand the math behind latency, ping and two way time resolution of an event. Yes, an event can take a while to reconcile, but when you view it from both sides, it's the same TOTAL time. This is analogous to relativistic frame reference in phyics.

    OIC!
    P.S. If you decide to activate DEMOREC's on your server, be aware that they are version specific, so you have to load them in the *exact* same version that they were recorded (server side).
    --

    In life, there is no respawn... why should there be in a game?
  • Hey.I.Have.A.GunHey.I.Have.A.Gun Posts: 645Player
    OICURMT! wrote: »
    Obviously the hit registration issues are the most frustrating, especially using the M24 as you often only get one chance at an enemy. It's ridiculous how many times I landed the shot and didn't get credit for it. And that's just of the videos that I clipped and uploaded. I didn't analyze every shot.

    Nading myself twice because of latency, and possibly a collision issue, was fantastic as well.

    Unless you have the DEMOREC, you can't say much regarding the hit registration. What the server sees and what the client sees are two different sides of the battle.

    I've admin'd WAY too many servers and have compared server vs client POV's on many occasions. I can tell you that sometimes, what you see is not reality (from the server point of view). The server is judge, jury and executioner, PERIOD. It has to reconcile two points of view into a single moment in time. BOTH clients need to reconcile with the server and both clients need to reconile their actions.

    I wrote an article a couple of years ago entitled
    "Cognitive bias - When your beliefs get in the way of reality..."

    It was specifically relating to when people think something happened, but in reality, it didn't (i.e. at the frame rates, the shot missed, you were actually not in the position you thought you were or you didn't really duck in time to avoid the shot), as the ping differential didn't allow this to happen.

    Here is an except from the article, pubished on Dec 24, 2016.
    Last night I was playing and noticed how many people whinge about "I should have killed you" and "No way that was near me" to "This game is f*cked" or "This game is broken"....

    I've never really subscribed to the notion that any game is perfect, as I have limited experience with games, as the AA series is the only FPS I've ever played.

    But, as I believe that Dunning and Kruger were correct in pointing out that a cognitive bias exist in both those with abilities and those without, I thought I'd start a collection of videos as VIEWED BY THE SERVER (i.e. from the demorecs) in order to provide some sort of "oh... so that's what really happened" moment.

    I'll post links to the videos here...

    My apologies in advance to people who may be the the demorecs, I'm using this only to illustrate events as they occurred and not to place labels or denigrate people. I hope this thread can be used to show how easy it would be during fast game play to see events differently than how they occurred.

    BTW: I still think that AA:PG should have some sort of electrodes hooked up to various body parts so that when you actually get hit, you get a shock. I suspect that would cause people to slow down and really concentrate on the game, rather than "Run-N-Gun"... :)

    OIC!

    I have several examples of where one client indicates it's a hit, from the other it's a miss. In the end, the server reconciles the difference and decides. Unfortunately, many people don't activate and publish DEMOREC's. The [TOG] server in Australia did and it stopped a lot of complaining, especially when I took they video footage and sync'd it with the server view, then gave it back to them.

    As for collision issues, I agree with you that the maps could use tweaking, but that's the maps fault and NOT the game. As for latency, well, why comment.

    Penultimately, if you have a good algorithm that does a better job, please forward it to the developers, I guarantee you they will test it and if it's good, probably implement it.

    Lastly, if you don't have a solid understanding of how client-servers work or how network packets are used for games, then the following is probably the best reference you can read.



    For those who think that ping matters, it really doesn't, when you sit down and understand the math behind latency, ping and two way time resolution of an event. Yes, an event can take a while to reconcile, but when you view it from both sides, it's the same TOTAL time. This is analogous to relativistic frame reference in phyics.

    OIC!
    P.S. If you decide to activate DEMOREC's on your server, be aware that they are version specific, so you have to load them in the *exact* same version that they were recorded (server side).

    The whole point of client side hit detection is that a hit on my screen is supposed to be a hit on the server.

    Of all the videos I posted, there might be one lower torso hit that wouldn't be a kill with full HP. There may be one or two that "hit the ghillie suit" but not the player. The rest are confirmed hits. A lot of them aren't even close to misses. I confirmed this by literally going frame-by-frame. There's no bias here. I landed the shots. The game failed to give me the kill. These are objective facts. I don't need the server demo to judge hit reg in a CSHD server. Despite all the claims to the contrary, hit reg isn't as "perfect" as people have claimed it to be. I think I'm somewhere around 42.5% accuracy with the M24. If my bullets worked the way they're supposed to, it would be at least 50%. (I had to get some bias in for you. ;) )

    As far as ping goes, my understanding is that part of the benefit of CSHD. To make what you hit on your screen be what you hit, even if the player is in a different position on their screen. The obvious downside is that this gets you shot behind cover from time to time.

    To address your bias comment further, there are absolutely times where I complain when I shoot and don't get a kill or get killed in a strange/BS way. I usually Shadowplay it and watch it back later. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong.
  • RollingInTheHurtRollingInTheHurt Posts: 200Player
    edited August 2018
    I have a love hate relationship with Demorecs...
    Demorecs are not worth two balls of sheep poo as you can not pull out the granular mathematical statistics from the files let alone having a simple toggle switch for player laser weapon aim and FOV.
    Demorecs is a great tool that could be amazing in stopping cheaters, but it just turned into another half baked idea that stopped at character colour charms.
    Devs and Anti Cheat groups amazingly actively ban via Demorecs yet there is no definitive calculations done on the players Aim %, View %, Bullet Trajectory %.
    1.jpg
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    edited August 2018
    Whiplash27 wrote: »

    Ok... I think most, if not everybody here knows that other titles besides AA exist. I just don't see what these other titles have to do with AA. Obviously the claim that most competitions and tournaments happen on PC has nothing to do with AA:PG in the slightest. The fact remains that the PC side is dead (more or less), with it's only population being that of die-hard fans and AA supporters. Whereas the PS4 is continuously getting an influx of new players every month - maybe even every day.

    Last I checked this is a thread about AA5, not AAPG.

    It relates to AA5 because if AA:PG was bad for PC what makes you think AA5 will be any different for PC?

    There are many factors as to why it was and still is bad for PC, the biggest I would say being pubbing got priority over comp when implementing new features. And although the comp community provided threads after thread of feedback, there were many like you are doing right now, going against comp for the sake of going against comp and then getting your way.

    So how did that work out for you guys? a dead community instead of a steady comp game that would have seen at least 20 teams in NA and more in EU.. then grow from there. Which in return influences pubbing positively cause the game would grow.

    but again, what do we know, right? Lets do the same to AA5 shall we.

    .. what saddens me the most is that there was no compromise, cause both comp and pub could have gotten their way with simple setting changes but no! ie. Comp Mode
    _____________________________
    #Support Comp Mode

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
  • -R@MPAGE--R@MPAGE- Posts: 151Player
    =IK=Doba= wrote: »
    Whiplash27 wrote: »

    Ok... I think most, if not everybody here knows that other titles besides AA exist. I just don't see what these other titles have to do with AA. Obviously the claim that most competitions and tournaments happen on PC has nothing to do with AA:PG in the slightest. The fact remains that the PC side is dead (more or less), with it's only population being that of die-hard fans and AA supporters. Whereas the PS4 is continuously getting an influx of new players every month - maybe even every day.

    Last I checked this is a thread about AA5, not AAPG.

    It relates to AA5 because if AA:PG was bad for PC what makes you think AA5 will be any different for PC?

    There are many factors as to why it was and still is bad for PC, the biggest I would say being pubbing got priority over comp when implementing new features. And although the comp community provided threads after thread of feedback, there were many like you are doing right now, going against comp for the sake of going against comp and then getting your way.

    So how did that work out for you guys? a dead community instead of a steady comp game that would have seen at least 20 teams in NA and more in EU.. then grow from there. Which in return influences pubbing positively cause the game would grow.

    but again, what do we know, right? Lets do the same to AA5 shall we.

    .. what saddens me the most is that there was no compromise, cause both comp and pub could have gotten their way with simple setting changes but no! ie. Comp Mode

    Dude you’ve been complaining about comp mode for years. We get it. Don’t act like that is the sole reason this game died. That’s just being ignorant. While I agree that some sort of mode needs to be created to cater to competitor play, so many other things need to be different for this game to be successful.

    Ultimately what I am trying to say is this game could have been somewhat successful even if they ignored comp mode. The overall game play was bad (ex. Hit reg, sounds, visuals), we only had one map that anyone would play (and was worth playing), and the revive structure needs to be re thought out.
    image
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    -R@MPAGE- wrote: »
    Ultimately what I am trying to say is this game could have been somewhat successful even if they ignored comp mode. The overall game play was bad (ex. Hit reg, sounds, visuals), we only had one map that anyone would play (and was worth playing), and the revive structure needs to be re thought out.

    But now you're just pretty much calling the whole game completely crap, which I am not. It was simply taking i the wrong directions, with bad features that had a poor influence on the game. Only sound issue from what I recall was vertical sound, but playable. You dont need the best game for it to play well, and every game has hit detection issues, this game wasn't that bad.

    But the maps do suck, always did, way to small for any sort of decent game play.

    .. and what revive structure, in comp mode zombies dont come back :open_mouth:

    _____________________________
    #Support Comp Mode

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 2,789Player
    Hit detection is a funny thing, everyone complains about it in every game. Doesn't matter who's at fault, its always the games fault. I see the same thing playing csgo, at least 1 player a game calling the game crap, while he misses his shots. B)

    I've done the whole hit detection test, recorded every incident I thought I was robbed on, and you know what.. it was pretty much on point. What "hey.I.Have.a.gun" is showing always seemed to be an issue with sniper or that auto sniper we have.

    You know what stuck with me throughout this journey? The massive praise the game got from Sooo many people when we switched from client side to server side or vise versa I dont recall now, but everyone thought the hit detection was solved, only to find out it was a game error "double damage".

    Which only told me 1 thing, EVERYONE loves being rewarded for shooting "at" someone, so like many other game especially BF and COD, it simply takes too many shots to kill someone (HS excluded obviously).
    Suggestions were made to increase damage by a minimum just to test it out but nahhhhh, they rather listen to people complain about poor hitreg.
    _____________________________
    #Support Comp Mode

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN4YhM6jUB2MxVj8i3b9rhw
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    edited August 2018
    Sorry to butt in.. change the subject.. but has Tots gone? I'd have liked to thank him for his part in developing AAPG, setting up map/skin competitions, podcasts etc.. I thought he did a lot to bring eyes and enjoyment to many to AA. He may have been a little quiet and secretive when it came spilling any beans but the dude was respectable and I'm sure tried his best. Hollywoods came along and started spoiling us rotten.. of course.. not complaining, love it!

    So, did he just leave? get the sack? got a new job? what gives? devs in the past have said their goodbyes..
    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • Bear_82Bear_82 Posts: 385Moderator
    . . . has Tots gone? . . .

    OICURMT! wrote: »
    I think it's worth quoting this... Tots did a great service for the game, he will be missed.

    Welcome to the forums aaHollywood. :)

    OIC!

    Yep, he left to start his own marketing company. He's out in the wild now!
    The right of the people to keep and arm bears shall not be infringed.
  • doogle!doogle! Posts: 733Player
    edited August 2018
    =IK=Doba= wrote: »
    This Comp Mode might be more successful on PS4/console.

    Maybe its just me but whenever I see some sort of Lan competition or a major of some sort its always on PC.. so ??

    Last time I checked there were only a few hundred PC players actually playing AA:PG, when compared to the thousands on PS4. Comps are more likely to be on PS4 than PC because PS4 is accomplishing the Army's goals -- not PC.

    you keep trying to nuke AA on PC and you might become my new forum nemesis
    Sorry to butt in.. change the subject.. but has Tots gone? I'd have liked to thank him for his part in developing AAPG, setting up map/skin competitions, podcasts etc.. I thought he did a lot to bring eyes and enjoyment to many to AA. He may have been a little quiet and secretive when it came spilling any beans but the dude was respectable and I'm sure tried his best. Hollywoods came along and started spoiling us rotten.. of course.. not complaining, love it!

    So, did he just leave? get the sack? got a new job? what gives? devs in the past have said their goodbyes..

    Perma bans w/ no warnings on longstanding community members does more harm to the Army Game image than good, I'd say. Regardless of how much we all disagree, I expect forum moderators, Betas, and Devs to take the high road in confrontational situations. They represent this product.
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    We all know how toxic this community can/has been, a by-product of the genre maybe, difference of opinion.. comp/pub divides, call it what you will, but they (AA) established rules and if they aint followed, what does anyone expect? Most moderators (even betas) here have been here long enough to know and follow any procedures set by AA in regards to punishment for rule breaking/forum malpractice.

    I'm sure the Army game image also depends on behavior of it's participants too. Believe it or not, it's not hard to not get banned on this forum, and before anyone says it, you don't have to be a kiss butt, or be inside some circle to avoid it, I've had my say in the past, been warned, be it positive or negative, I personally just never crossed a line I knew was there. I'd venture to bet that whoever has been banned in the past has done something wrong to deserve it. But being banned is not nice and probably never feels deserved right? which i think is what your referring to?

    You speak (bold quoted me) like it's a good thing to lose a developer (at least how I read it) and you know what? losing is never a good thing. I can't speak for the man (Tots) but I'm sure he wanted what was best for the game, community and AA. Discrediting people for simply doing their job is for lack of a better term, slanderous.
    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • aaHollywoodaaHollywood Posts: 372Player
    Sorry to butt in.. change the subject.. but has Tots gone? I'd have liked to thank him for his part in developing AAPG, setting up map/skin competitions, podcasts etc.. I thought he did a lot to bring eyes and enjoyment to many to AA. He may have been a little quiet and secretive when it came spilling any beans but the dude was respectable and I'm sure tried his best. Hollywoods came along and started spoiling us rotten.. of course.. not complaining, love it!

    So, did he just leave? get the sack? got a new job? what gives? devs in the past have said their goodbyes..

    Tots started his own marketing business and moved on.
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