Full Release AAPG Tournament

-vortex-vortex Posts: 188Player
Hopefully the full release is coming in a few weeks but I wanted to get this started now so that hopefully we can get something decent going. People seem uninterested in AA lately and they are waiting for the full release. What better way to kick it off than actually having something to compete for.

The goal: A large crowd-funded prize pool paid out to the top 3 teams.

I am currently taking ideas for this tournament. Should it be a one day/one weekend/one game per week tournament? 4v4 or 5v5? Map set? Single Elim? B03/5?

I will pool together the ideas in this thread and look for a suitable way to keep track of the prize pool. Hopefully I can get it to the point of opening the tournament for registration when the full release date is announced. I want to keep registration open for at least 1-2 weeks after the game launches so we can get some new comp teams in here as well as the old ones.
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Feel free to rip apart this idea as long as it's constructive.
TheTots wrote:
I think this thread has run it's course......
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Comments

  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    edited June 2015
    5v5 Double Elimination, Best of 3. 1 desinated map per round (Would be the third map if needed), each team gets to pick a map. Team playing on their map loses side choice. Team playing on the opponents map gains side choice. Sundays. All three matches completed by next Sunday, mandatory date for matches to be played is Sunday unless teams agree to a new date, but all matches must be completed before the following Sunday. This will give you a really good idea of each teams skill level starting out coming into a new league. Also I feel that m14 should not be allowed because it has 21 bullets...and the elcan should def not be allowed because it is very OP in the full release. Also shotgun is silly for competition, don't allow it.
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • -vortex-vortex Posts: 188Player
    edited June 2015
    Some new rules I can think of/clarify and expand on colts':
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    I decided I want to bring something new to the comp scene that will hopefully stay for a while.
    The current map rotation seems to be :
    Crossfire
    Inner Hosp
    Intercept
    Lockdown
    Seige
    Shadow Step
    Spring Street
    Watchdog
    Breach

    Out of these the team with the lower rank will start by discarding one map, followed by team 2 discarding one. Each team can discard 3 maps. Once that is done and only 3/9 maps remain then the lower ranking team picks "their" map. The third unpicked map is the over time map should the score be 1-1 after two games.
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    You lose side choice on "your" map. The side choice of map 3 goes to the lower ranked team.
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    Every match (set of 3 maps) must be played within the week it is assigned or it will count as a loss for both teams. Matches should be played on "game day" (tbd) if possible. Only rescheduling if absolutely needed.
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    Using the M14/Elcan/Shotgun will count as a loss on the map it is used.
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    Most other rules will follow ESL.

    TheTots wrote:
    I think this thread has run it's course......
  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    edited June 2015
    you got m4 instead of m14 but finally someone is making sense do you need some help? Next thing we need to discuss is overtime I don't see it discuss here anywhere. I am sure you have thought about this already and the best way to go is what got voted over at fragged nation... I believe it went same map...first to 5 wins...switch sides every 4 rounds? That's how overtime should be. Also which team gets side choice in overtime? My suggestion is the team that finished on Defense starts on defense and the team that finished on assault starts on assault.
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • -vortex-vortex Posts: 188Player
    you got m4 instead of m14 but finally someone is making sense do you need some help? Next thing we need to discuss is overtime I don't see it discuss here anywhere. I am sure you have thought about this already and the best way to go is what got voted over at fragged nation... I believe it went same map...first to 5 wins...switch sides every 4 rounds? That's how overtime should be. Also which team gets side choice in overtime? My suggestion is the team that finished on Defense starts on defense and the team that finished on assault starts on assault.
    Help would be appreciated, yes.

    For overtime I am thinking:
    Maps are veto'd until 3 remain. Each team picks a map. Third one is OT map. Lower ranked team gets side choice, play out the map. We could cut it to first to 5 switch every 4 rounds.
    TheTots wrote:
    I think this thread has run it's course......
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    What's the rationale for barring shotgun in particular?

    It's always available and yet the number of times I can recall a team even using it at all is practically zero. Where's the balance issue?

    Same goes for M14.

    The M249 is the only weapon in that set I've noticed getting regular use in competitions.
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited June 2015
    crossfire, lockdown, and breach are too small. i wish the devs would seriously remake them to have bigger play space, or simply get rid of them. it's the best thing for the game to point out bad maps like this so devs don't incidentally release more maps in the future with these same problems...
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    i know some of you guys like some of those maps because they are fast rounds in pubs and that means very little downtime when you die each round... but they are just awful maps. really, these are so cramped that there is no place you can go at the start of the round that won't get fragged or sprayed at in 5 seconds.
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    bc, just because a weapon isn't getting high amount of use doesn't mean it isn't silly. in fact, if this game/comp were more popular, these weapons would be on the chopping block before the end of season 1. that includes every other issue we have with the game such as unlimited smokes, bad maps, zoom optics, etc. cheap is cheap.
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    to answer you, an example for shotgun used correctly (differently than m4)... you do not even need to lean a corner to defend a spot. just wait for them to come to you. with an m4 this would be suicidal to allow a player to come around a corner on you, but with a shotgun that's where the advantage lies. at least with an m4 the time to live against one in point blank range is tolerable for being caught off guard... but a shotgun is instant death.... just clearing the map corner by corner making your way to the objective, and you stumble upon a guy with a shotgun... game over. not even a gunfight. just an execution.
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    how are you going to counter that? dump that set nade for 2 extra flash bangs? even then, have the devs fixed flash bangs enough that a blind player can't easily shoot you while they are blind when you try to round a corner on them?


  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    I don't buy it. If the shotgun's so great, why are all the teams ignoring it in their matches? It's easier to believe that the weapon strength is being greatly overstated than that every team has no clue what they're doing.

    Shotguns aren't inherently silly just because they're shotguns. CS has a far more mature scene and shotguns and SMGs exist just fine next to the rifles.

    They're clearly not over-powered or we'd see teams using them. Players are choosing not to equip shotguns because they value the versatility of the rifles more (and this is still the case after the Devs have given us the ability to carry two primaries). Where's the pressing need to add extra rules to complicate things?

    The closer competition settings are to the rest of the game, the better. Leagues should be a natural extension of normal play but with more organization, not some elitist microcosm where "that weapon's not allowed, it's low-skill" or whatever the complaint against some of these guns are meant to be.
  • SoldierBobSoldierBob Posts: 76Player
    edited June 2015
    I use it all the time for the challenge and rage effect it has on its recipients, truth is its not very good when you compare it to any of the alternative weapon choices. I have shot people from point blank range many times and still not got the kill, I think its because the pellets have either not 'all' hit the dude, or simply didn't register for some reason, then, other times I have shot someone in west choke from outside dark. To play it effectively you have to basically do what shhfifty said, and wait for someone to come to you, anticipate movements, you won't see many shotgun toters out in the open sniping at bakery window.

    If anything, its a luck weapon, point and click, hope for the best and it shouldn't be used in comp, that is if you want to win. Although, not so sure why anyone would want to disqualify a bad weapon choice, it makes no sense.
  • SSKbartSSKbart Posts: 125Player
    BCPull wrote: »
    I don't buy it. If the shotgun's so great, why are all the teams ignoring it in their matches? It's easier to believe that the weapon strength is being greatly overstated than that every team has no clue what they're doing.

    Shotguns aren't inherently silly just because they're shotguns. CS has a far more mature scene and shotguns and SMGs exist just fine next to the rifles.

    They're clearly not over-powered or we'd see teams using them. Players are choosing not to equip shotguns because they value the versatility of the rifles more (and this is still the case after the Devs have given us the ability to carry two primaries). Where's the pressing need to add extra rules to complicate things?

    The closer competition settings are to the rest of the game, the better. Leagues should be a natural extension of normal play but with more organization, not some elitist microcosm where "that weapon's not allowed, it's low-skill" or whatever the complaint against some of these guns are meant to be.

    I partially agree.

    In CS, the shotgun is a lot less powerful if aimed for the body, so I do not see the comparison.
    The thing with shotgun is... It's strong, very strong in cqb, however, on most maps, you want to do a variety of things, not only close combat. However, I could see possibilities for a surprise tactic 1-2 rnds with somebody with a shotgun defending a cqb spot on maps like breach or watchdog (basement, other guy not too far away with m4, if he dies he can go take that gun).

    Something to think about. Shotgun is almost unbeatable in CQB, the only reason people didn't pick it is because of the severe disadvantages of distance. However, now we can pick up guns, if played well with the team together, it could be a strong pick sometimes. Nobody has tried it in that way yet.

    I guess I might even think about such a tactic in the future, just to see how and if it works, it's only strong in very specific environments though...
    SNLSTB.Bart^
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited June 2015
    right, so you've never played the CoD or BF games competitively then i see... because in those game more weapons/attachments/loadouts get restricted in comp than allowed... because in CoD there is always a "best in slot" that trumps everything, and in BF there is always something that needs to be banned in order for taking the OBJ to be viable (so defense doesn't just endlessly rocket/tube their own OBJ, making it impossible for assault to take).
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    when you notice something like this, you don't rely on devs to balance, you get the leagues to ban it asap... when you notice this (cough m24/elcan cough) then comp rules need to be updated asap and lay down those sort of restrictions... yes, it would be bland if aapg was restricted to no scopes and just m4's/m16's.... or would it?
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    i tell you what though. it would probably get the devs full attention and say yeah we need to address that. the new opt in finally made the m24 more difficult, but that took a REALLY long time to see change.... the part where aapg comp decided to allow m24 surely didn't help speed up that process.. think of how much sooner the m24 could have been patched if the comp scene boycotted it for being too easy mode... instead of allowing it because everyone is bored and will include it because w/e reason.
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    somewhat hopeful here though, i ask maybe the us army could even add in other rifles to compete with the m4 and m16... varying degrees of difference between each, like how bf series does weapon balance. m416, etc.
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    might be interesting to see some ak's laying around the map the us army team could pick up, instead of only being able to get those from dead enemies... just saying. more choice...
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    a big reason CS gets a pass with not restricting a bunch of stuff in comp is because it is a game balanced on economy and weapons cost varying amounts of money.
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    you would probably find a great specific moment in csgo match for a shotgun purchase. say when you KNOW the other team is not buying armor that round, for eco... so instead of beating them with more expensive rifles and losing that eco advantage, you save a good chunk of cash by going shotgun and risk to increase the eco lead further.
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    but note how in aapg you have no armor ever... so the shotgun is good all the time! pretty distinctive difference. the moment aapg adds body armor that makes shotgun require 2 shots to kill, that's the day i will drop the argument on them being cheap.
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    i'm not saying the current group of aapg comp guys are going to fall in love with m14 or shotgun any time soon (some sure fell in love with the m24 and that elcan though) , but i am saying you can't compare aapg to csgo like they're apples to apples. oh, and it's pretty clear the elcan and m24 were too strong and leagues should have taken action against them ... but we all know there's only a handful of people in aapg discussing a ruleset, and those people aren't exactly filled with experience and wisdom and fast to restrict anything when such issues fester. can anyone truly say with a straight face that m24 or elcan were not op? why were they allowed?


  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    SSKbart wrote: »
    BCPull wrote: »
    I don't buy it. If the shotgun's so great, why are all the teams ignoring it in their matches? It's easier to believe that the weapon strength is being greatly overstated than that every team has no clue what they're doing.

    Shotguns aren't inherently silly just because they're shotguns. CS has a far more mature scene and shotguns and SMGs exist just fine next to the rifles.

    They're clearly not over-powered or we'd see teams using them. Players are choosing not to equip shotguns because they value the versatility of the rifles more (and this is still the case after the Devs have given us the ability to carry two primaries). Where's the pressing need to add extra rules to complicate things?

    The closer competition settings are to the rest of the game, the better. Leagues should be a natural extension of normal play but with more organization, not some elitist microcosm where "that weapon's not allowed, it's low-skill" or whatever the complaint against some of these guns are meant to be.

    I partially agree.

    In CS, the shotgun is a lot less powerful if aimed for the body, so I do not see the comparison.
    The thing with shotgun is... It's strong, very strong in cqb, however, on most maps, you want to do a variety of things, not only close combat. However, I could see possibilities for a surprise tactic 1-2 rnds with somebody with a shotgun defending a cqb spot on maps like breach or watchdog (basement, other guy not too far away with m4, if he dies he can go take that gun).

    Something to think about. Shotgun is almost unbeatable in CQB, the only reason people didn't pick it is because of the severe disadvantages of distance. However, now we can pick up guns, if played well with the team together, it could be a strong pick sometimes. Nobody has tried it in that way yet.

    I guess I might even think about such a tactic in the future, just to see how and if it works, it's only strong in very specific environments though...

    I've seen it used on the west side of breach and it was indeed very effective.
  • -vortex-vortex Posts: 188Player
    I'm glad to see gun discussion but we're getting off topic imo.
    I like the idea of the guns being barred but this is simply the best way to do it. The guns are rarely used in comps, there should be no reason not to bar them.
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    I will compile an official list of rules sometime today or tomorrow and update the OP with it.
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    I think that if you don't like lockdown, crossfire, and breach, feel free to use your three vetoes on them. That's what they are there for.
    TheTots wrote:
    I think this thread has run it's course......
  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    edited June 2015
    just wanna add if you disagree with m14 ban go use m14 with mk4 scope and tell me that thing is not easy and op compared to other weapons...Acog seems to be harder to use than mk4 scope on it. You'd think the mk4 would be harder. I'll make a video if needed...If you don't see the m14 mk4 as been easy/op you shouldn't be judging weapon balance or competitive rule sets.
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • SoldierBobSoldierBob Posts: 76Player
    Have you ever thought since you have played this game for soooooooooooooooooo long that it's probably easy for 'YOU', not everyone who plays is an instant pro, just so you know.

    Go ahead, make a video I'm sure you will do well lol
  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    SoldierBob wrote: »
    Have you ever thought since you have played this game for soooooooooooooooooo long that it's probably easy for 'YOU', not everyone who plays is an instant pro, just so you know.

    Go ahead, make a video I'm sure you will do well lol
    I barely use m14 and that doesn't change the fact of how easy it is it's not just easy for me it's easy for anyone who uses it comparing it to m4/m16 reddot...yes. And we are talking about competitive rule sets here...Not even sure why your posting in this thread when
    1. Your not gonna play in this tournament
    2. Your don't have the experience/knowledge to judge competitive rulesets.
    3. Your prolly not going to play in future leagues that would follow these rulesets.

    Therefore this has nothing to do with you so why I you posting such nonsense? Ill post of video of 2 matches with it shortly...
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • SoldierBobSoldierBob Posts: 76Player
    WOW, People are not allowed to post too? you got rules for that? you are an elitist forum mod wannabe, I see, nice.

    I Look forward to watching your videos watching you own nubs with a gun your good at using :)
  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    Didn't say you couldn't post just simply asked you why your posting in a thread about stuff that does not even concern you. This is the E-Sports part of the forums maybe you didn't know that.
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Only 1 per side, both teams have access, same damage curve as a CSGO SCAR-20, regularly gets beat in CQB, beat at long range by the M24. Not really a balance issue there IMO. If I were to ask the Devs to change anything, I'd say lower its ROF. If your team's getting wrecked by it, change up how you're responding to it.

    Which guns a player is using matters far less than being in the right spot and aiming at the right place. One guy with an M14 isn't going to win a 1vX because of the gun.

    Here's my fundamental issue with trying to throw in a bunch of rules to limit loadouts. Every time an admin decides "I don't like weapon XYZ" for whatever reason, they're closing out options and strategies and making the gameplay that much more boring. If you think a weapon's that overpowered, abuse it in competition! Make it clear *why* it's overpowered against other teams! Demonstrate the balance issue to create a compelling case for the Devs to change it.

    No M14? M24 overpowered? Limit M249 optics? No shotgun? You're trying to design a reddot-M4-only competition. That sounds painfully dull. If you want good competition, let the rules allow for interesting strategies.
  • .dcG-Colts^.dcG-Colts^ Posts: 1,973Player
    edited June 2015
    BCPull wrote: »
    Only 1 per side, both teams have access, same damage curve as a CSGO SCAR-20, regularly gets beat in CQB, beat at long range by the M24. Not really a balance issue there IMO. If I were to ask the Devs to change anything, I'd say lower its ROF. If your team's getting wrecked by it, change up how you're responding to it.

    Which guns a player is using matters far less than being in the right spot and aiming at the right place. One guy with an M14 isn't going to win a 1vX because of the gun.

    Here's my fundamental issue with trying to throw in a bunch of rules to limit loadouts. Every time an admin decides "I don't like weapon XYZ" for whatever reason, they're closing out options and strategies and making the gameplay that much more boring. If you think a weapon's that overpowered, abuse it in competition! Make it clear *why* it's overpowered against other teams! Demonstrate the balance issue to create a compelling case for the Devs to change it.

    No M14? M24 overpowered? Limit M249 optics? No shotgun? You're trying to design a reddot-M4-only competition. That sounds painfully dull. If you want good competition, let the rules allow for interesting strategies.

    m14 vs m24 long range m14 wins...don't understand how you think m24 is automatic win. Also there is still these weapons available with those gone....m4 iron, m4 red dot, m4 holo, ar iron, ar red dot, ar holo, m16 iron, m16 red dot, m16 holo, m16 acog, m24 plus the new scopes coming...So your pretty far off with your m4 reddot only stance. Taking advantage of a gun that is OP is simply something I don't do because its cheap and I'm already a decent enough player to not need to abuse this stuff.
    Pie charts + Graphs= Very Bad.



  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Listing the same gun three times and pretending the scope choice is substantial isn't variety. What do you have against letting teams being able to set up unique tactics? I thought you were good at this game, are you telling me you can't handle playing against a shotgun? Or do you not understand that you can play a longer angle if somebody keeps playing tight corners with an 870?

    Variety in tactics is what makes competition interesting and you're trying to take that away from the game. Frankly, there isn't much variety in what people do even with all the guns available.
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