Server admin and 3rd party site (PBBans/ACI/ETC) discussion

13468914

Comments

  • [soldier][soldier] Posts: 145Player
    Rubberboot pretty much covered everything already. Just a few additional comments:

    We offer VAC kicks as an option. Valve says that VAC bans are for cheating:
    https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7849-Radz-6869&l=english
    What is VAC?
    If a user connects to a VAC-Secured server from a computer with identifiable cheats installed, the VAC system will ban the user from playing that game on VAC-Secured servers in the future.

    The VAC system reliably detects cheats using their cheat signatures. Any third-party modifications to a game designed to give one player an advantage over another is classified as a cheat or hack and will trigger a VAC ban. This includes modifications to a game's core executable files and dynamic link libraries.

    While server admins may choose to ban specific players, server admins cannot VAC ban players.

    The following will not trigger a VAC ban:
    Using chat programs like X-Fire or Overwolf
    System hardware configurations
    Updated system drivers, such as video card drivers

    Use only trusted machines to play on VAC-Secured servers - if you are not sure whether or not the machine you are using to connect to Steam may have cheats installed, do not play on VAC-Secured servers.

    Use caution when installing any game modifications, such as scripts or custom skins. Only download custom content from trusted sources. Hackers sometimes maliciously disguise their cheats to cause others to get banned.

    If you have a problem with having a VAC ban that you feel is unjust, take it to Valve. If you think VAC has too many "false positives", Valve are the ones to talk to about it.

    Valve says VAC bans are permanent:
    Important:
    All VAC bans are permanent - Valve has a zero-tolerance policy for cheating and will not lift VAC bans on request.

    When our VAC Ban Enforcement option is enabled, we treat VAC bans just like PunkBuster Violation/PBSS/CVAR/MD5 bans.

    All bans are permanently enforced for the account that incurs them. This is the way it has been since AA2 days. If you are in the "once a cheater always a cheater" camp, VAC Ban Enforcement is for you. If you are in the "I only care about cheaters who have cheated in the game I am playing" camp, the default for VAC Enforcement is Off. If you are in the "I don't care about who has cheated before" camp, don't run ACI at all. It's that easy.

    If our members want to have a discussion about whether there should be the ability to limit ban enforcement within a certain age, that would be an excellent discussion for them to have in the ACI forum member's area. That is where the people who use our services and donate to keep them running have a say.
    Im really happy that you have come to share your opinion.
    I just want to point out that nobody really blames ACI for this issue. We know very well that ACI is only providing the tool

    I appreciate that you feel that way, but unfortunately that is not the view or purpose of most of the participants in this thread. Example:
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    Well, I blame them for not educating their members and just watching them abuse their tools and name to justify bans and for providing stalking tools annoying people who just want to play peacefully. Oh, did I mention their unprofessionalism of banning people who are criticizing them?

    In this case VAC bans are a wedge issue being used by certain haters to use this forum for their ACI-bashing.

    As far as "unprofessionalism of banning people who are criticizing them", we run our forums to keep the troublemakers out. Being banned from our forums has absolutely no bearing on someone's ability to play the game, conflating the two is simply dishonest.
  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    Keep the convo clean or the thread is closed. You don't get to trash talk ACI because of bad private server admin experiences, and don't bring any issue you had with their forums here.

    The point of this thread is to talk about the tools available, how they are used, and how we can better use and educate admins.

    At the end of the day though, if they want their private server locked down with every tool known to man, that's their prerogative.

    We provide Official servers that everyone is welcome on. If you don't like how someone runs their server, don't play on it. Or heck, start your own. Lead by example.

    ACI/PBBans/ETC are not to blame for badmins. They are providing tools and a service that do a lot of good.
    The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    When our VAC Ban Enforcement option is enabled, we treat VAC bans just like PunkBuster Violation/PBSS/CVAR/MD5 bans.
    It's fundamentally different in that VAC is 100% unconnected to the AA series titles.

    [soldier] wrote: »
    In this case VAC bans are a wedge issue being used by certain haters to use this forum for their ACI-bashing.
    Or it's actually that VAC bans are not directly connected to AAPG, hurting player numbers without just cause, a source of confusion for new players who see PunkBuster kick messages in spite of not actually doing anything wrong in this game... . Meanwhile, your persecution accusations aren't really warranted. This is all ad hominem.

    [soldier] wrote: »
    As far as "unprofessionalism of banning people who are criticizing them", we run our forums to keep the troublemakers out. Being banned from our forums has absolutely no bearing on someone's ability to play the game, conflating the two is simply dishonest.
    Who's conflating forum bans with game bans? This is an attempt to discredit those opposed to your policies by creating lies on their behalf. As for banning troublemakers, the record would show that to be highly misleading.
  • [soldier][soldier] Posts: 145Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    Who's conflating forum bans with game bans? This is an attempt to discredit those opposed to your policies by creating lies on their behalf. As for banning troublemakers, the record would show that to be highly misleading.

    Like I said.
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Alright, I'll provide another example for a different game then so noone feels offended. I tried some World of Tanks after 3 years of not playing and here is its state atm. There is a mod called XVM which improves the UI mostly but what most people use it for is its feature to see stats in-game. It displays player winrate, a rating and the amount of games played. This is the most used mod in the game and Wargaming even patched some of the mod's features into their game.

    Now here's where the issues are:
    1. Bad players throw their life away trying to get as much damage as possible on players with good ratings and reduce your team's chance of winning.
    2. Good players get focused by artillery which currently is at a broken state. Basically getting punished for being good at the game, sounds great. Vice versa you commonly have high-priority tanks spotted in the open and your arty will not dare to shoot them waiting for players with better rating to get spotted because they believe killing those will help their team out more.
    3. There is extreme toxicity, people are crying about their bad teams and the calculated chance of winning for their team before the game even started and it's common to see insults for bad ratings.

    Now you can obviously argue it's the player's fault using the mod like that but you can't prevent people from getting angry at and blaming the developers of the mod and Wargaming for not banning it. If a tool makes a game unenjoyable for me I feel like I'm in the position to blame the creators of that tool for it, at least partly. I can't expect the tool provider to care about it and neither can I expect it to be banned by the game developer but "not our fault how people use it" seems like a cheap "solution" to me.
  • eddiethinkeddiethink Posts: 27Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    Or it's actually that VAC bans are not directly connected to AAPG, hurting player numbers without just cause, a source of confusion for new players who see PunkBuster kick messages in spite of not actually doing anything wrong in this game... . Meanwhile, your persecution accusations aren't really warranted. This is all ad hominem.

    Some of us don't care in which game a player has cheated. If a player cheats in one game they are likely to do it in another game. The cheater is responsible for his or her own behavior. They are the reason they can't play AAPG because they cheated in another game. Server admins choose to not let them play on their server which is their right as they pay for said server. If you don't agree with this A) don't cheat in any game, or B) don't play on protected servers. Which clan policy each clan has is up to the clans themselves. Whether you agree with it or not is really not that interesting. If you want to play with people that cheat in other games that's fine. A lot of us don't and we reserve the right to keep these people of our server because we pay for it.

    SKULL-PART-DEUX3.png
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 630Player
    ACI and the idea behind it is great. Calling a certain tool crap or complaining about a forum ban isnt hating ACI and isnt causing "trouble". Its called contructive criticism and disagreeing with the "One way,my way" mentality of the CURRENT leadership.
    AAPG is good!
  • eddiethinkeddiethink Posts: 27Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    Alright, I'll provide another example for a different game then so noone feels offended. I tried some World of Tanks after 3 years of not playing and here is its state atm. There is a mod called XVM which improves the UI mostly but what most people use it for is its feature to see stats in-game. It displays player winrate, a rating and the amount of games played. This is the most used mod in the game and Wargaming even patched some of the mod's features into their game.

    Now here's where the issues are:
    1. Bad players throw their life away trying to get as much damage as possible on players with good ratings and reduce your team's chance of winning.
    2. Good players get focused by artillery which currently is at a broken state. Basically getting punished for being good at the game, sounds great. Vice versa you commonly have high-priority tanks spotted in the open and your arty will not dare to shoot them waiting for players with better rating to get spotted because they believe killing those will help their team out more.
    3. There is extreme toxicity, people are crying about their bad teams and the calculated chance of winning for their team before the game even started and it's common to see insults for bad ratings.

    Now you can obviously argue it's the player's fault using the mod like that but you can't prevent people from getting angry at and blaming the developers of the mod and Wargaming for not banning it. If a tool makes a game unenjoyable for me I feel like I'm in the position to blame the creators of that tool for it, at least partly. I can't expect the tool provider to care about it and neither can I expect it to be banned by the game developer but "not our fault how people use it" seems like a cheap "solution" to me.

    Enough people apparently enjoy the tool so it doesn't get taken out. What it has to do with ACI and teaching their admins is beyond me. ACI is not implemented in the game. It's implemented on the server with the settings set as the server admins see fit. No player can use it or take advantage of it. Every player in the server still plays the game as is. What admins do and do not ban for is up to them. If not for ACI probably a lot more people would get banned for being suspected of hacking as there would be no way to check their history. Well,..apart from their VAC bans that is.
    SKULL-PART-DEUX3.png
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    edited June 2016
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    Alright, I'll provide another example for a different game then so noone feels offended. I tried some World of Tanks after 3 years of not playing and here is its state atm. There is a mod called XVM which improves the UI mostly but what most people use it for is its feature to see stats in-game. It displays player winrate, a rating and the amount of games played. This is the most used mod in the game and Wargaming even patched some of the mod's features into their game.

    Now here's where the issues are:
    1. Bad players throw their life away trying to get as much damage as possible on players with good ratings and reduce your team's chance of winning.
    2. Good players get focused by artillery which currently is at a broken state. Basically getting punished for being good at the game, sounds great. Vice versa you commonly have high-priority tanks spotted in the open and your arty will not dare to shoot them waiting for players with better rating to get spotted because they believe killing those will help their team out more.
    3. There is extreme toxicity, people are crying about their bad teams and the calculated chance of winning for their team before the game even started and it's common to see insults for bad ratings.

    Now you can obviously argue it's the player's fault using the mod like that but you can't prevent people from getting angry at and blaming the developers of the mod and Wargaming for not banning it. If a tool makes a game unenjoyable for me I feel like I'm in the position to blame the creators of that tool for it, at least partly. I can't expect the tool provider to care about it and neither can I expect it to be banned by the game developer but "not our fault how people use it" seems like a cheap "solution" to me.

    Enough people apparently enjoy the tool so it doesn't get taken out. What it has to do with ACI and teaching their admins is beyond me. ACI is not implemented in the game. It's implemented on the server with the settings set as the server admins see fit. No player can use it or take advantage of it. Every player in the server still plays the game as is. What admins do and do not ban for is up to them. If not for ACI probably a lot more people would get banned for being suspected of hacking as there would be no way to check their history. Well,..apart from their VAC bans that is.

    Because I don't like people looking up my names to call me out and insult me while I'm trying to enjoy the game? Is it really too hard to understand that I just want to play peacefully without getting stalked with some tool? I have to make a new steam account, new AAPG account and search for non ACI secured servers in order to do that? Sorry but it's just a tiny bit inconvenient for me. If anything ACI got me banned on more servers than less, it even got someone else banned for using my name so sorry, not gonna agree on that as well.
  • [soldier][soldier] Posts: 145Player
    edited June 2016
    ACI and the idea behind it is great. Calling a certain tool crap or complaining about a forum ban isnt hating ACI and isnt causing "trouble". Its called contructive criticism and disagreeing with the "One way,my way" mentality of the CURRENT leadership.

    Oh look, more ACI-bashing. I love this forum. Am I allowed to [MOD EDIT] too?
  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    ACI and the idea behind it is great. Calling a certain tool crap or complaining about a forum ban isnt hating ACI and isnt causing "trouble". Its called contructive criticism and disagreeing with the "One way,my way" mentality of the CURRENT leadership.

    Oh look, more ACI-bashing. I love this forum. Am I allowed to [MOD EDIT] too?

    I dont see the comment itself as bashing he is trying to pass a point.
    But what i do believe is since flat is former member of ACI as far as i recall.. you guys probably have something bad going between you. And this is not the place to open that
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    I love this forum.

    Only 3 posts and you love it already? you should stop by when were talking about game mechanics, the same ones we thrash over multiple times per year, you'll love it even more :lol:
    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • [soldier][soldier] Posts: 145Player
    And this is not the place to open that
    Like I said.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    [soldier] wrote: »
    And this is not the place to open that
    Like I said.

    You didn't say. What are you saying? This isn't furthering the actual discussion.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    Because I don't like people looking up my names to call me out and insult me while I'm trying to enjoy the game? Is it really too hard to understand that I just want to play peacefully without getting stalked with some tool? I have to make a new steam account, new AAPG account and search for non ACI secured servers in order to do that? Sorry but it's just a tiny bit inconvenient for me.
    A certain degree of anonymity/privacy is reasonable to expect though I understand the implications for bans and so on. I've played under alternate accounts when I was getting recognized from even my very limited youtube releases and didn't want to deal with people asking about it.

    Of course, even then I'd get admins asking why I had alternate accounts and saying "anybody with alts must have something to hide." Well, yeah... my identity. It doesn't make a player dirty. That's what a/c programs are supposed to take care of, not cyber-stalking services.

    Short of playing through a VPN on a new Steam account, what is a clean player supposed to do to opt out of tracking? Do I have to maintain a curated list of non-ACI servers?
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    XVM and WoT

    It comes down to where Devs are or are not willing to relinquish control of what's allowed in their game. I loved that mod and customized HUDs when I still played WoT (years ago), but I did see the toxicity it created as well. Purples got respect, reds got mocked when they complained about bad teammates.

    The comparison -- a third-party contribution that wants to create value for its users but has real potential for negative side effects as well -- is an apt one.
  • eddiethinkeddiethink Posts: 27Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    Alright, I'll provide another example for a different game then so noone feels offended. I tried some World of Tanks after 3 years of not playing and here is its state atm. There is a mod called XVM which improves the UI mostly but what most people use it for is its feature to see stats in-game. It displays player winrate, a rating and the amount of games played. This is the most used mod in the game and Wargaming even patched some of the mod's features into their game.

    Now here's where the issues are:
    1. Bad players throw their life away trying to get as much damage as possible on players with good ratings and reduce your team's chance of winning.
    2. Good players get focused by artillery which currently is at a broken state. Basically getting punished for being good at the game, sounds great. Vice versa you commonly have high-priority tanks spotted in the open and your arty will not dare to shoot them waiting for players with better rating to get spotted because they believe killing those will help their team out more.
    3. There is extreme toxicity, people are crying about their bad teams and the calculated chance of winning for their team before the game even started and it's common to see insults for bad ratings.

    Now you can obviously argue it's the player's fault using the mod like that but you can't prevent people from getting angry at and blaming the developers of the mod and Wargaming for not banning it. If a tool makes a game unenjoyable for me I feel like I'm in the position to blame the creators of that tool for it, at least partly. I can't expect the tool provider to care about it and neither can I expect it to be banned by the game developer but "not our fault how people use it" seems like a cheap "solution" to me.

    Enough people apparently enjoy the tool so it doesn't get taken out. What it has to do with ACI and teaching their admins is beyond me. ACI is not implemented in the game. It's implemented on the server with the settings set as the server admins see fit. No player can use it or take advantage of it. Every player in the server still plays the game as is. What admins do and do not ban for is up to them. If not for ACI probably a lot more people would get banned for being suspected of hacking as there would be no way to check their history. Well,..apart from their VAC bans that is.

    Because I don't like people looking up my names to call me out and insult me while I'm trying to enjoy the game? Is it really too hard to understand that I just want to play peacefully without getting stalked with some tool? I have to make a new steam account, new AAPG account and search for non ACI secured servers in order to do that? Sorry but it's just a tiny bit inconvenient for me. If anything ACI got me banned on more servers than less, it even got someone else banned for using my name so sorry, not gonna agree on that as well.

    Do you have a ban on ACI? If not the Admins of the servers banned you not ACI. They might have used the tool incorrectly sure, but maybe you should take that up with the server admin. You might have a lot of bad experiences with admins which is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean the tool is no good. If you don't want to be looked up blame the people that make such a tool necessary, not the people that try to help and do something about it.
    SKULL-PART-DEUX3.png
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    Since we are talking about keeping the game clean and the devs are listening closely. I wonder why the AAPG DEVs do not make deleted accounts public and provide the ban/removal reason?

    We had couple of examples where the banned player made a new account and continued normally with his gaming and telling around that the ban was not real cos no reason was given etc etc.

    Just curious, maybe Tots can offer some insight
  • [soldier][soldier] Posts: 145Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    You didn't say. What are you saying? This isn't furthering the actual discussion.

    But I did say, in my previous message. I don't see a need to repeat myself when the original message is still there to be viewed. Are you having trouble with your browser where you can't see any previous posts?

    I don't want to get another warning, so what's the next step? Do you get to throw out another ad hominem or is it my turn?
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    Because I don't like people looking up my names to call me out and insult me while I'm trying to enjoy the game? Is it really too hard to understand that I just want to play peacefully without getting stalked with some tool? I have to make a new steam account, new AAPG account and search for non ACI secured servers in order to do that? Sorry but it's just a tiny bit inconvenient for me.
    A certain degree of anonymity/privacy is reasonable to expect though I understand the implications for bans and so on. I've played under alternate accounts when I was getting recognized from even my very limited youtube releases and didn't want to deal with people asking about it.

    Of course, even then I'd get admins asking why I had alternate accounts and saying "anybody with alts must have something to hide." Well, yeah... my identity. It doesn't make a player dirty. That's what a/c programs are supposed to take care of, not cyber-stalking services.

    Short of playing through a VPN on a new Steam account, what is a clean player supposed to do to opt out of tracking? Do I have to maintain a curated list of non-ACI servers?

    Obviously the tools make sense when used for their purpose but I don't think ACI realizes how they are getting abused, that's what I was trying to point out. Besides the usual "you are trying to hide something" stuff I also got a lot of "you are a bad player and want hackusations" because I had a low level (which my main funnily enough kinda has as well) when in reality I got way less than on my main account. Not allowing any random person to use the history tool to its full extent anymore has helped a little but from what I heard that wasn't really their choice so I won't give them credits for that. I wish I recorded way more of my experiences but I started too late and was too lazy most of the time. I'm sure anyone actually watching that kind of stuff happening from an objective point would realize how much harm can be caused.
    Saccho wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    XVM and WoT

    It comes down to where Devs are or are not willing to relinquish control of what's allowed in their game. I loved that mod and customized HUDs when I still played WoT (years ago), but I did see the toxicity it created as well. Purples got respect, reds got mocked when they complained about bad teammates.

    The comparison -- a third-party contribution that wants to create value for its users but has real potential for negative side effects as well -- is an apt one.

    In case it wasn't like that already when you were playing, it's currently at the point of calling red players "tomatoes" which is kinda cute compared to the other stuff the chat has to offer.
Sign In or Register to comment.