Server admin and 3rd party site (PBBans/ACI/ETC) discussion

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  • -Ner0--Ner0- Posts: 1,574Player
    edited June 2016
    if you don't like the way the admins handle their server then play somewhere else, simple as that.
    I do that... mostly.

    HJbSf8Tt.jpg?2
    Think positive thoughts,
    say positive words,
    do positive actions
    and the positive grows.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited June 2016
    In my personal opinion, if you have a VAC ban on record you should at least be put through the trouble of finding a way to hide your trail.

    I'd rather a player say "It was 3 years ago and I learned my lesson" and be open and honest about their history instead of hiding it through new accounts for suspicious admins to "discover" through linked IPs, similar names, and so on.

    Let's be frank: creating a new account just means more demand for IP-tracking and account-linking services. Their goal is to totally prevent players from moving on from their pasts.

    How, then, do you separate an honest player trying to move on with a new account from a dirty player trying to dodge being found out?
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    In my personal opinion, if you have a VAC ban on record you should at least be put through the trouble of finding a way to hide your trail.

    I'd rather a player say "It was 3 years ago and I learned my lesson" and be open and honest about their history instead of hiding it through new accounts for suspicious admins to "discover" through linked IPs, similar names, and so on.

    Let's be frank: creating a new account just means more demand for IP-tracking and account-linking services. Their goal is to totally prevent players from moving on from their pasts.

    How, then, do you separate an honest player trying to move on with a new account from a dirty player trying to dodge being found out?

    I think you do mean well but you are also generalizing a lot and quite frankly being too populistic and a little offensive here towards AC communities. I hardly think the goal of anti cheat organizations are to prevent players from moving on from their pasts but rather trying to keep games free of cheese eaters.
    Saccho wrote: »

    On point 6 -- see point 2, this isn't really a new point. It comes down to whether false positives are acceptable in an anti-cheat policy.


    Meanwhile, ALLLL of this is premised on the idea that PunkBuster doesn't do a good enough job to actually catch anything and that admins should guess whether somebody is likely to possibly be using anything based on history. That's the real problem here. All of these VAC-based kicks are presumptive in nature and amount to little more than thought-crime.

    Point 6 is surely very relevant, cos it answers your closing statement. Obviously and without a doubt PB is far from doing a good job in A/C. And It is also very likely that a player may get scared for using cheats in Valve protected games but may try it on another that is not valve protected (AAPG for instance) So for me with the current tools in hand, the false positives are acceptable because its positive effect on protection outweighs the negatives in my opinion.
    That being said, if the tools offered other options I would adjust a grace period for 1st time offenders. Anything more than one ban would translate to a lifetime ban for me as server admin without questions asked.

    Finally any banned player is capable of creating a new account if they wish to play on a server that uses a larger MBL and they also have plenty of other servers to play on if they chose to stick with their VAC banned steam account.

    I also agree with -=312th=-Atrophied, in the majority of the cases you hear from caught accounts, that it was either someone else (siblings, friends, another player who hacked their accounts, dog etc), or the A/C was malfunctioning or the admins are noobs who do not have proof (take a look at this example here for instance )

    I personally heard only from 2 cheese eaters who actually said they used it and it was a mistake and they accept the consequences. From almost all others who had to say something it was mostly insults and attacks towards ppl who caught them for the crimes they committed.



  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Goals of AC communities don't really matter if their intentions backfire and they are indeed preventing people to move on. On top they provide stalking tools without proper instructions and don't care about those getting abused to justify bans or to annoy honest players trying to enjoy their time. I don't think AC communities should be all about hating cheaters and trying the hardest to catch as many as you can regardless of game and time but rather about educating admins about cheats, ways to detect cheaters and at the very least how to use the tools provided. It's 2016, cheats have existed since ages and yet people tend to have no clue whatsoever banning left, right and center. It's always easy to point at them and call them noobs etc. but I'm sure a lot of them just have no idea what they are doing rather than purposely banning better players.
  • frankoffrankof Posts: 1,065Moderator
    The official stance of ACI used to be "we ban the account, not the player, account security is your responsibility, create a new account and take it as a lesson".
    I dont know if this is still the case, but its a bit double standard with the VAC ban feature and the history tool(or rather admins shortcomings in using it).

    It only creates issues for players that tested something(years ago) and learnt their lesson, they are not welcome back into the game.

    The hard core cheaters dont care anyway, they blatantly cheat, get banned, create a new acc. and repeats it, all to annoy other players, the dont play for stats etc. its just for [TOS Violation] and giggles.
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  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    Hello.
    I Usually never get into this kind of arguements about ACI policy and VAC bans since it always turns out to one direction that people will just say "once a hacker always a hacker" and the discussion ends there.
    but i would like to share my point of view on this thread.(as a person who does have a VAC ban).

    1. I Play Americas Army since 2005 i really love the game and i do have a clean record and never have used any sort of hacks, Many people on the EU section know me since i was very active in the competitive scene, i even organized the first ever tournament on AAPG on the closed beta version.
    2. Its always been a problem that server admins take decisions too fast about kicking/banning a player, most of the times they dont take the time to do a proper background check, they just see a linked account and they kick/ban immidiatly.
    3. I can truely understand the desire to have hackers free server but i think ACI policy about VAC bans has pushed that desire abit too far.
    4. Steam gives VAC ban for all of the VAC protected games for any sort of violation that a player caused on that game, its absolutely fine since the VAC applied to that game only but ACI takes that ban and apply that to all games that are under the protection of ACI.
    5. As for my story i will try to make it short:
    over a year ago me and my friend were playing COD BO 1 Zombies for old time sake(local server), BO1 desnt have VAC protection on the zombies mode, i used a memory editor to change the money value for both of us so we can try to reach as many waves as we can, since the "cheat" does not have impact to anybody and we did not gain any unfair advantage over anybody (since its just you and the zombies), i considered it fine.
    we finished playing BO1 and wanted to move on to BO2 zombies, what i didnt know that BO2 zombies does have VAC protection even on private servers (later i understood that its probably because of the leadersboard that does not exist on BO1), i tried using a memory editor to change the money value and that is why i got VACed from the game. if somebody does not belive me i would be more than happy to share a screenshot from my steam account that shows that i was banned on zombies mode.
    i have tried sorting it with steam support for over half a year before i gave out because theyre support is mostly copy pasted message that does not have any connection to what i was asking.

    6. I did not write my own story just to show my case, like me there are many people who have been banned for reasons that in my opinion and maybe in many other people opinion does not justify a global ban to any game they would like to play.

    7. Since i have recieved the ban my playtime on Americas Army have dropped dramatically, it is not fun to play when everywhere you go people are calling you a hacker and kick you immidiatly.

    8.Sorry for the long post but for once i had to write my own opinion on this matter, hopefully it will inlight some people in regard to the VAC system.
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 802Player
    frankof wrote: »
    The official stance of ACI used to be "we ban the account, not the player, account security is your responsibility, create a new account and take it as a lesson".
    I dont know if this is still the case.

    Yes, every AC organization only bans GUID's that are used for cheating and do not engage clean GUID's even if they are linked to a banned GUID or a VAC Ban. Every player that have been banned in this game because they are "linked" to a banned GUID or a VAC Ban have been made by the server admin himself. And that's were the problem is most of the time, most admins have a mindset of i pay for the server so it's my way, and that's their right to do so but it also being abused that way.

    Back in the day server admins gave people the benefit of the doubt, today's generation instantly bans people because they don't trust anymore. They only hate and prejudging people.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    I think you do mean well but you are also generalizing a lot and quite frankly being too populistic and a little offensive here towards AC communities. I hardly think the goal of anti cheat organizations are to prevent players from moving on from their pasts but rather trying to keep games free of cheese eaters.
    Cross-game bans and linking new accounts to old accounts does both. They've chosen to accept that players cleaning up their act will be caught in the crossfire with a view of "they had it coming and should never have done it in the first place."
    So for me with the current tools in hand, the false positives are acceptable because its positive effect on protection outweighs the negatives in my opinion.
    That being said, if the tools offered other options I would adjust a grace period for 1st time offenders. Anything more than one ban would translate to a lifetime ban for me as server admin without questions asked.
    Yep, and I respect your positions there. For me, false positives should never be an acceptable side effect. I find the tools to be far too limited to justify their use.
    Finally any banned player is capable of creating a new account if they wish to play on a server that uses a larger MBL and they also have plenty of other servers to play on if they chose to stick with their VAC banned steam account.
    Again -- a new account just makes them look guilty. You yourself mentioned earlier checking suspicious player backgrounds for other banned accounts. You may only find cause if a player is definitively linked to multiple bans (a position I find totally fair), but do you think everyone using history/tracking tools will look past a single banned account in the past of an otherwise clean player?
    I also agree with -=312th=-Atrophied, in the majority of the cases you hear from caught accounts, that it was either someone else (siblings, friends, another player who hacked their accounts, dog etc), or the A/C was malfunctioning or the admins are noobs who do not have proof (take a look at this example here for instance )

    I personally heard only from 2 cheese eaters who actually said they used it and it was a mistake and they accept the consequences. From almost all others who had to say something it was mostly insults and attacks towards ppl who caught them for the crimes they committed.
    Yep, I used to run appeals for clans in previous games when detection was more clear-cut. Heard it all as well and understand. I also remember cases like the dad linked to his son's banned account. Nothing in his gameplay would have ever raised suspicion, bad stats, I liked the guy and think he's clean... but another clanmate ran random BG checks in the server and found the static IP link. I think it's not particularly fair that people like that get tarred as dirty so easily. Again: for me, false positives are 100% unacceptable.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    And I also respect your opinion but I think there can never be a version where you can have 0% false positives unless you are in fact sitting next to everyone and witness if their story is true or not.

    IMO that is the general problem. As server admin you have to make a choice. And that is why VAC bans are optional.

    @-VI-ImaHustler : I understand why you feel treated unfairly but it is not possible to know for what a VAC ban is issued since Valve does not enclose the reasons for what the Ban was given.
  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    edited June 2016
    And I also respect your opinion but I think there can never be a version where you can have 0% false positives unless you are in fact sitting next to everyone and witness if their story is true or not.

    IMO that is the general problem. As server admin you have to make a choice. And that is why VAC bans are optional.

    @-VI-ImaHustler : I understand why you feel treated unfairly but it is not possible to know for what a VAC ban is issued since Valve does not enclose the reasons for what the Ban was given.

    while i cannot "proove" that i cheated money, i can proove that the VAC is only on black ops 2 zombies. the game itself is not a multiplayer is more of a survival game, so you are suggesting that i possibly used an aimbot to shoot zombies in the head?

    Edit: just for the sake of it i uploaded a picture if it.
    Untitled.jpg

    as you can see i purchased the game in 2012, and i nearly havnt played it at all execpt for those 3 hours.
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 802Player
    the game itself is not a multiplayer is more of a survival game

    Maybe i miss understood this part, but as i recall BO2's zombie can be played both solo as well as co-op with 4 players online. Therefore it's also defined as a multiplayer game mode.
  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    edited June 2016
    the game itself is not a multiplayer is more of a survival game

    Maybe i miss understood this part, but as i recall BO2's zombie can be played both solo as well as co-op with 4 players online. Therefore it's also defined as a multiplayer game mode.

    Yes you are correct but you do not play against those 4 players you play with them against the zombies. and the genre is referred to as survival game
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    @-VI-ImaHustler : I understand why you feel treated unfairly but it is not possible to know for what a VAC ban is issued since Valve does not enclose the reasons for what the Ban was given.

    And this is the reason why ACI should keep their hands off VAC bans. It just doesn't make sense to rely on on a boolean value if there are countless edge cases.
  • [!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian[!ReDRuM!]L0rdDamian Posts: 802Player
    edited June 2016
    the game itself is not a multiplayer is more of a survival game

    Maybe i miss understood this part, but as i recall BO2's zombie can be played both solo as well as co-op with 4 players online. Therefore it's also defined as a multiplayer game mode.

    Yes you are correct but you do not play against those 4 players you play with them against the zombies. and the genre is referred to as survival game

    Ye i know you don't play against the other players, that's why it's called co-op :proud:
    I do know people used a trainer, but a lot of people got banned for it.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    edited June 2016
    And I also respect your opinion but I think there can never be a version where you can have 0% false positives unless you are in fact sitting next to everyone and witness if their story is true or not.

    IMO that is the general problem. As server admin you have to make a choice. And that is why VAC bans are optional.

    @-VI-ImaHustler : I understand why you feel treated unfairly but it is not possible to know for what a VAC ban is issued since Valve does not enclose the reasons for what the Ban was given.

    while i cannot "proove" that i cheated money, i can proove that the VAC is only on black ops 2 zombies. the game itself is not a multiplayer is more of a survival game, so you are suggesting that i possibly used an aimbot to shoot zombies in the head?

    Edit: just for the sake of it i uploaded a picture if it.
    Untitled.jpg

    as you can see i purchased the game in 2012, and i nearly havnt played it at all execpt for those 3 hours.

    I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say I do not believe your story. Its just impossible to control every story behind a VAC ban or any ban for that matter.

    Also http://steamcommunity.com/id/ImaMenace/ this is the only official information a third person can get about your VAC ban - which only states a VAC ban.

    Now without a big effort a screeshot can be manipulated to make a BAN look innocent or not multiplayer related. Again I am not saying that you are faking the screenshot, I am simply pointing out that its not a real proof for a third party.

    Please check the link on my last post before you posted. There is a conversation with a player that did claim I had no proof for a clear PB ban violation. This type of response or excuses are what a server admin faces daily.
  • -SD-DELTON-ACI--SD-DELTON-ACI- Posts: 1,479Player
    edited June 2016
    Saccho wrote: »
    -SD-DELTON wrote: »
    This is the place to advertise a new clan but yet again your like flies around [MOD EDIT] all the post after
    the clan advert should be deleted.
    If you have a problem with a ban then go to their website not here.

    The clan was banning innocent players due to information received from ACI. How the clan handles the situation is absolutely relevant for anybody looking to join. Information about the policies the clan uses is also relevant.

    I think DannyBoy and his clan comes out looking well for admitting the mistake, saying the group will work harder to prevent similar issues in the future, and welcoming the player back.

    The preceding posts have been civil; yours has not.

    First of all thanks TheTots for splitting the topic.
    The clan was banning innocent players due to information received from ACI
    This is not quit true the player was banned not for information received from ACI but because
    the information was read wrong by the server owner.

    This is my opinion on cheese eaters like it or not.

    Name one cheese eater that stopped cheese eating because he felt bad on other players NONE.
    I can name at least 700 from AAPG and 209,382 from BF3 not one of them stopped cheese eating until they got caught.
    Why should they have a second chance they didn't give anyone on that servers they played on a chance.
    After they get caught they start with the bs "it was not me it was my friend" "i didn't know it was a hack"
    Then you get "well it was a different game why kick me on this one"
    Like that makes a difference so you can hack in any other game and expect to play on our server.

    If you get caught cheese eating you will be banned on our server and no second chance.
    If a clan has a known hacker in it then the clan tag will be banned until they remove the hacker.

    Good clean players will accept this cheese eaters will not.
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  • -VI-ImaHustler-VI-ImaHustler Posts: 81Player
    edited June 2016
    And I also respect your opinion but I think there can never be a version where you can have 0% false positives unless you are in fact sitting next to everyone and witness if their story is true or not.

    IMO that is the general problem. As server admin you have to make a choice. And that is why VAC bans are optional.

    @-VI-ImaHustler : I understand why you feel treated unfairly but it is not possible to know for what a VAC ban is issued since Valve does not enclose the reasons for what the Ban was given.

    while i cannot "proove" that i cheated money, i can proove that the VAC is only on black ops 2 zombies. the game itself is not a multiplayer is more of a survival game, so you are suggesting that i possibly used an aimbot to shoot zombies in the head?

    Edit: just for the sake of it i uploaded a picture if it.
    Untitled.jpg

    as you can see i purchased the game in 2012, and i nearly havnt played it at all execpt for those 3 hours.

    I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say I do not believe your story. Its just impossible to control every story behind a VAC ban or any ban for that matter.

    Also http://steamcommunity.com/id/ImaMenace/ this is the only official information a third person can get about your VAC ban - which only states a VAC ban.

    Now without a big effort a screeshot can be manipulated to make a BAN look innocent or not multiplayer related. Again I am not saying that you are faking the screenshot, I am simply pointing out that its not a real proof for a third party.

    Please check the link on my last post before you posted. There is a conversation with a player that did claim I had no proof for a clear PB ban violation. This type of response or excuses are what a server admin faces daily.

    im sorry if it come out as if i dont believe you. i do and i understand it, im all for banning hacker. the actualy point is not about me i gave myself as an example and the discussion should not be at an individual case but as a discussion about those policy is global.

    @ -SD-DELTON
    1. cheese eating is the most absurd comparison i have yet to see.
    2. your clan banned my clan as a whole long time before i have received my VAC, and why? maybe you can tell me because the only visible reason was that we killed you guys too much. (i honestly want a answer and i am not trying to tease you) so your clan is part of the problem in this matter.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    -SD-DELTON wrote: »
    Good clean players will accept this cheese eaters will not.
    I'm a clean player. I don't accept your suggestion that every such player had poor intentions or never stopped on their own accord. This is a false choice suggesting that anybody that disagrees with you has bad motives.
    -SD-DELTON wrote: »
    Name one cheese eater that stopped cheese eating because he felt bad on other players NONE.
    I can name at least 700 from AAPG and 209,382 from BF3 not one of them stopped cheese eating until they got caught.
    I don't believe you actually know the details of 210,000+ bans. Their existence alone doesn't imply motive. False positives exist as well -- EvenBalance's site provides plenty of examples of retracted bans. How about bans for modifying the single-player-only experience, something that I think is entirely within one's rights? That has no effect whatsoever on your enjoyment of games.
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 3,193Player
    I'm of the opinion that I respect anti-cheat measures as long as they work to catch 'actual' cheats and not have the potential to punish an innocent person, even if no ill will is meant by anyone who uses this whole VAC as a method of keeping a server clean, it's not actual proof cheats 'are' or have been used.. I've seen people excluded from servers who did nothing but apply a skin to a game character for a game that has nothing to do with AA past or present! For that reason alone, as much as I'd want my server to be free from cheats and the potential of them, if I was an admin, I couldn't choose to use VAC as a definitive method of stopping an alleged cheater playing on my server.. certainly not without solid proof they actually were cheating whilst playing this game.

    I get the whole once a cheater always a cheater mindset, but games have changed.. nowadays you can modify your gaming experiences by altering simple lines of text.. and by downloading mods that do nothing but add content to games, the possibilities especially in PC gaming are endless.. so unless there's proof that a VAC ban came from this game (which I'm not even sure is possible anyway?) then imo using a VAC ban as an excuse to disallow someone playing this game, is simply not right, especially when you consider that were trying to grow a game community that's not exactly thriving.

    I know some people might look at this post and think, "woah I didn't think he would say something like that!" as it's largely against your methodry, ethos or whatever.. but most of you know me and I have always respected and abided by all admin decisions as a player and friend on your servers.. but that does not mean I have to agree to them, I will always like and enjoy playing AAPG with you all, no matter what rules you set :+1:


    If my trollery drives you crazy, you'd better put on your seatbelt.






  • [Prt_Dictator][Prt_Dictator] Posts: 275Player
    Its honestly quite ridiculous that vac bans from any game grant you a life time ban on this game.
    There are tons of games with vac protection and we have no information on how implemented it is on each one nor the circumstances in which those bans were applied.

    Is it worth having false positives for a chance of catching cheaters? I think not, false positives should never be acceptable, not even a single one and this over protective system just fuels an environment of suspicion, finger pointing and frustration for those getting caught by the blind fire.
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