Server admin and 3rd party site (PBBans/ACI/ETC) discussion

TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
edited June 2016 in Units (Clans)
The USA recruiting thread was getting a bit derailed, but there was some interesting discussion going on so I thought it would be best to give it a thread all to itself. Please remember to be civil, refrain from any kind of naming/shaming, and stay within the forums rules.

This discussion was created from comments split from: New Clan -[U|S|A]- Universal Soldier's Alliance.
The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

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Comments

  • MickeyUKMickeyUK Posts: 2Player
    edited June 2016
    Hello! I play many America's Army servers, including this one, and usually have a fun time...but today when I tried to connect, I was told I've been blocked by Punkbuster? I have never cheated online in my life...I abhor it, so I am sure this is an error. If anything, I hope I can draw your attention to foundationless bans.
    I will just play another server...but it's a shame if this can't be resolved as I think I'm a respectful player, and wasn't causing any harm on your server.
    Also...I'm sure my K/D would be better if I was cheating...but anybody who spectates me will clearly see I'm a terrible shot ha...I do okay, but I'm no pro
  • -[U|S|A]-DannyBoy-ACI--[U|S|A]-DannyBoy-ACI- Posts: 369Beta Tester
    MickeyUK wrote: »
    Hello! I play many America's Army servers, including this one, and usually have a fun time...but today when I tried to connect, I was told I've been blocked by Punkbuster? I have never cheated online in my life...I abhor it, so I am sure this is an error. If anything, I hope I can draw your attention to foundationless bans.
    I will just play another server...but it's a shame if this can't be resolved as I think I'm a respectful player, and wasn't causing any harm on your server.
    Also...I'm sure my K/D would be better if I was cheating...but anybody who spectates me will clearly see I'm a terrible shot ha...I do okay, but I'm no pro

    Yes, you were banned the same night as Sr.Gatilho, who posted a video thinking he was banned because of something supposedly in that video, but that was not the case, actually it may be my fault, if I was shown the wrong way to read the background checks... In your case, you have a linked ip ban to BF3, the other guy had 8 linked ips to AA2..

    Now, I wont make excuses, however I am a first time server owner, just under 3 months we have been up as a clan.. I was taught by a friend when I was admin in their clan how to read the history check through ACI, well, now I am being told It is the wrong way.. Unfortunately all I can do at this point is unban.. And apologize if I was indeed reading it wrong..

    I have a reliable source now who is going over the best way to read the history tool and so hopefully this wont happen in the future..

    All you really needed to do was pop me a message, or jump on our ts.. We are not hard to get along with, and we will work with people to make AAPG a safer, cleaner game to play!!

    Sorry for any inconvenience, hope to see ya again!!
    One day I will graduate noob school!!!
    -[U|S|A]-DannyBoy!!


  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    Danny there some tutorials on aci forums. They are a bit old but a good place to start.
  • -Ner0--Ner0- Posts: 1,570Player
    edited June 2016
    I think it's wrong to ban player that got a VAC 10 years ago when he was 14 years old and have played straight since.
    HJbSf8Tt.jpg?2
    Think positive thoughts,
    say positive words,
    do positive actions
    and the positive grows.
  • -[U|S|A]-DannyBoy-ACI--[U|S|A]-DannyBoy-ACI- Posts: 369Beta Tester
    Thanks Applepie,
    One day I will graduate noob school!!!
    -[U|S|A]-DannyBoy!!


  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    I think it's wrong to ban player that got a VAC 10 years ago when he was 14 years old and have played straight since.

    That's an individual case and the action may seem harsh, yet we prefer to have a general protection and it's impossible to check each player for their BG.

    Now you tell me on this list, how many ppl who got auto kicked have a similar 10 year old VAC ban and how many actually were caught recently http://www.anticheatinc.net/forums/ls_livebans_list.php?serverip=108.61.230.46:7778

    In my opinion these kinda of arguments are populistic.

  • -[U|S|A]-DannyBoy-ACI--[U|S|A]-DannyBoy-ACI- Posts: 369Beta Tester
    I would much rather have the protection then not..

    anticheatinc.net/forums/ls_livebans_list.php?serverip=208.100.62.26:7778

    This is just one month..
    One day I will graduate noob school!!!
    -[U|S|A]-DannyBoy!!


  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited June 2016
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    I think it's wrong to ban player that got a VAC 10 years ago when he was 14 years old and have played straight since.

    That's an individual case and the action may seem harsh, yet we prefer to have a general protection and it's impossible to check each player for their BG.

    Now you tell me on this list, how many ppl who got auto kicked have a similar 10 year old VAC ban and how many actually were caught recently http://www.anticheatinc.net/forums/ls_livebans_list.php?serverip=108.61.230.46:7778

    In my opinion these kinda of arguments are populistic.
    I looked over the past 3 months. You had 250 VAC kicks applied to 164 unique GUIDs.

    88, or 54%, of the accounts kicked were for a VAC ban from within the past 365 days.
    30 (18%), 365-730 days.
    15 (9%), 2-3 years.
    16 (10%), 3-4 years.
    3 (2%), 4-5 years.
    2 (1%), 5-6 years.
    10 (6%), 6+ years since the VAC ban, with the oldest VAC ban 3352 days prior to the kick.

    Let's compare to a first-time offender being sentenced in the USA.
    Aggravated assault, 15-21 months
    Harassment with threat of harm, 10-16 months
    Stalking or domestic violence, 27-33 months

    Compare those terms determined suitable for rehabilitation and release to the *permanent* VAC ban policy and ask yourself if that makes any sense.
    I would much rather have the protection then not..

    anticheatinc.net/forums/ls_livebans_list.php?serverip=208.100.62.26:7778

    This is just one month..
    You assume all of those bans were deserved. That's *extremely* likely to be wrong.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 1,050Player
    edited June 2016
    I do not really agree:
    1- Cheating in games and being unwelcome on server does not compare to any law crimes for that you would actually end up in jail. Cos you do not actually go to jail for not being welcome in an ACI VAC ban protected server. 2- I personally welcome at least a 3 year grace period for 1st time offender and your numbers show that I banned 54%+18%+9% of the VAC banned players from my server for those 3 years while having only 19% over for casualties. 3- this may not be a perfect solution by only looking at these numbers yet there is no option to make a time limit for the VAC bans, maybe you should contact Valve or ACI to suggest better banlists 4- You are also simply assuming that all those banned accounts are the only steam accounts of the cheese eaters, where I know from the BG checks I made that cheese eaters very often do have several VAC banned accounts, yet you do not include that in your statistics at all which only favors your argument 5- If we take your analogy that going to jail (or in this case getting caught while cheating) actually helps rehabilitating the offenders/criminals, I am sure we could find many statistics which proves exactly the opposite (specially in your countries jail system) 6- I prefer to have an environment where I reduce the risk of cheese eaters to a bare minimum and even with all these VAC bans and ACI bans as server admin I find cheese eaters almost on daily basis on our server - Now also take the player base numbers into this equation and tell me how many innocent lives are so dramatically effected by my harsh VAC ban policy?

    So to answer your question I pretty much think that using VAC banlist makes very much sense.

    Best, Applepie


    EDIT: also comparing being VAC banned to going to jail is also a typical populistic argumentation style ;)
  • MickeyUKMickeyUK Posts: 2Player
    Hi DannyBoy,

    No worries! I'm not sure why I have a ban on BF3...news to me! Ha...I do play that game...but I've never cheated on any multiplayer game ever...so yeah, the system does seem to have it's flaws. I just wanted to clear my name and draw your attention to the flaw...thanks for lifting the ban! :)
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    MickeyUK wrote: »
    Hi DannyBoy,

    No worries! I'm not sure why I have a ban on BF3...news to me! Ha...I do play that game...but I've never cheated on any multiplayer game ever...so yeah, the system does seem to have it's flaws. I just wanted to clear my name and draw your attention to the flaw...thanks for lifting the ban! :)

    It's not you having that ban, it's someone who used the same IP as you once. The system isn't flawed either, you just gotta use it correctly and not ban people for using the same IP a cheater used at one point.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    MickeyUK wrote: »
    Hi DannyBoy,

    No worries! I'm not sure why I have a ban on BF3...news to me! Ha...I do play that game...but I've never cheated on any multiplayer game ever...so yeah, the system does seem to have it's flaws. I just wanted to clear my name and draw your attention to the flaw...thanks for lifting the ban! :)

    It's not you having that ban, it's someone who used the same IP as you once. The system isn't flawed either, you admins just gotta use it correctly and not ban people for using the same IP a cheater used at one point.

    FTFY
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    SSKnecabo wrote: »
    MickeyUK wrote: »
    Hi DannyBoy,

    No worries! I'm not sure why I have a ban on BF3...news to me! Ha...I do play that game...but I've never cheated on any multiplayer game ever...so yeah, the system does seem to have it's flaws. I just wanted to clear my name and draw your attention to the flaw...thanks for lifting the ban! :)

    It's not you having that ban, it's someone who used the same IP as you once. The system isn't flawed either, you admins just gotta use it correctly and not ban people for using the same IP a cheater used at one point.

    FTFY

    Now you are blaming it on poor admins :(
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited June 2016
    I do not really agree:
    1- Cheating in games and being unwelcome on server does not compare to any law crimes for that you would actually end up in jail. Cos you do not actually go to jail for not being welcome in an ACI VAC ban protected server. 2- I personally welcome at least a 3 year grace period for 1st time offender and your numbers show that I banned 54%+18%+9% of the VAC banned players from my server for those 3 years while having only 19% over for casualties. 3- this may not be a perfect solution by only looking at these numbers yet there is no option to make a time limit for the VAC bans, maybe you should contact Valve or ACI to suggest better banlists 4- You are also simply assuming that all those banned accounts are the only steam accounts of the cheese eaters, where I know from the BG checks I made that cheese eaters very often do have several VAC banned accounts, yet you do not include that in your statistics at all which only favors your argument 5- If we take your analogy that going to jail (or in this case getting caught while cheating) actually helps rehabilitating the offenders/criminals, I am sure we could find many statistics which proves exactly the opposite (specially in your countries jail system) 6- I prefer to have an environment where I reduce the risk of cheese eaters to a bare minimum and even with all these VAC bans and ACI bans as server admin I find cheese eaters almost on daily basis on our server - Now also take the player base numbers into this equation and tell me how many innocent lives are so dramatically effected by my harsh VAC ban policy?

    So to answer your question I pretty much think that using VAC banlist makes very much sense.

    Best, Applepie


    EDIT: also comparing being VAC banned to going to jail is also a typical populistic argumentation style ;)

    On points 1, 5 -- I don't really want to go down a criminal justice rabbit hole. The comparison is only to say "where's the second chance in the system?" and emphasize that the past should really become the past at some point.

    On point 2 -- Yes, I'd also like to see a grace period at some point. 32 of 164 accounts had more than 1 VAC. Only 3 of those 32 repeat offenders have been clean for > 3 years. (That is, a 3-year grace period would admit 28 single offenders and only 3 second offenders.)

    I don't know total uniques logging onto your server in that time period, but almost 1 in 5 of the kicks were for a player that would be fine with a 3-year grace period. That's a really high false positive rate.

    On point 3 -- [MOD EDIT]

    On point 4 -- Having multiple accounts banned would only increase the prevalence of banned accounts. It would make the issue seem more dire, not less. I disagree that it would favor my point of view on the value of grace periods. Besides -- why would these "account hoppers" play primarily on a 5+ years old account with a VAC if they're so willing to make new ones instead?

    On point 6 -- see point 2, this isn't really a new point. It comes down to whether false positives are acceptable in an anti-cheat policy.


    Meanwhile, ALLLL of this is premised on the idea that PunkBuster doesn't do a good enough job to actually catch anything and that admins should guess whether somebody is likely to possibly be using anything based on history. That's the real problem here. All of these VAC-based kicks are presumptive in nature and amount to little more than thought-crime.
  • -Ner0--Ner0- Posts: 1,570Player
    edited June 2016
    My opinion is very simple, ban player that cheat, not players that cheat in another game another time.
    I've never been an admin but I think it would be easier to police.
    HJbSf8Tt.jpg?2
    Think positive thoughts,
    say positive words,
    do positive actions
    and the positive grows.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Saccho wrote: »
    On point 3 -- [MOD EDIT]

    I'd love to know what rule this was supposedly violating.
  • -vR.cialone!--vR.cialone!- Posts: 121Player
    So, with all of these background checks ... any chance my clean BG can get me unbanned or has that ship sailed?
  • SSKnecaboSSKnecabo Posts: 2,721Player
    edited June 2016
    -Ner0- wrote: »
    My opinion is very simple, ban player that cheat, not players that cheat in another game another time.
    I've never been an admin but I think it would be easier to police.

    This is basically how it's done for competitive play currently and probably any competitive environment. Also first-time bans usually last a year or two. Same goes for VAC bans, bound to the game/game series and lasts a year on first cheating incident, yet people like to expand it to AAPG and make it permanent.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    edited June 2016
    -SD-DELTON wrote: »
    This is the place to advertise a new clan but yet again your like flies around [MOD EDIT] all the post after
    the clan advert should be deleted.
    If you have a problem with a ban then go to their website not here.

    The clan was banning innocent players due to information received from ACI. How the clan handles the situation is absolutely relevant for anybody looking to join. Information about the policies the clan uses is also relevant.

    I think DannyBoy and his clan comes out looking well for admitting the mistake, saying the group will work harder to prevent similar issues in the future, and welcoming the player back.

    The preceding posts have been civil; yours has not.
  • -=312th=-Atrophied-=312th=-Atrophied Posts: 67Player
    In my personal opinion, if you have a VAC ban on record you should at least be put through the trouble of finding a way to hide your trail. Too many times we have heard the story from a player that "it was a long time ago" or "I don't do that anymore" and then we see their name pop up on the banlist for a PB violation. It should be pointed out: I know my clan polices our own members just as thoroughly as we do other players on our servers.

    Also, it should be mentioned that cross-banning for VAC is an optional feature... if you don't like the way the admins handle their server then play somewhere else, simple as that. At the very least some people should be thankful that they are at least given a reason (Previous VAC ban, etc) rather than arbitrarily banned for "playing too well" as is the case with some servers.
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