General UGC feedback (not map-specific)

Bear_82

This discussion was created from comments split from: [Map Release] Decerpt.

=IK=Doba=

I'm not doubting the ground shaking features, the rockets and the sculptures.. it's the layout which I've seen in all AA made maps.. not alot of flow.. just scatter... id love to see someone finally make a CS type map where buildings are attached, it's more path ways.. rather than objects and free standing buildings randomly placed

-=}WoLvErInE{=-

I don't think it would translate, TBH. Top 2 maps in cs are Dust and Cache, would you agree? Dust is already in aapg, and no one even looks at it, why? One thing most people forget/fail to understand or realize, it's your weapons that make the map, not the other way around. What you think would happen if you put inner hospital in csgo? You think it would be just as popular as it is now? I can gurantee you it would be considered a bad map/layout. I can make you cache or Inferno inch for inch in scale from cs to aapg, and they would play different. The assault team would get destroyed on Inferno in aapg, they'd have no chance in [TOS Violation].

Anyways, not everyone looks at things the same way, so we can go on for days and months talking about this. If it were that easy, very map that's in workshop would be a hit. Believe it or not some of the top maps in games are/were luck. You can plan all you want, but it takes luck more than anything else to hit the jackpot with a great map.

At the end of the day it's about preference. When I was younger, most of my thoughts were about competing maps, now it's about shaking the ground and creating fun lasting moments.

But.... As I've told you and many other comp players, my door is always open if you guys have a layout or scratch you guys want me to translate to map. You know where to find me. I don't have a problem getting into the comp mindset for a while, just like I did adding that south area in crossfire.

I just like making things now that people play for fun, since it's what I play. When I competed I made them for competition, and the pub yelled at me for not making them maps. lol.

4DChessGenius

Even CS has tons of maps that go nowhere. There's a reason why the most popular CS map is 15 years old and three of the other maps in the competitive rotation are from the beta days (back in 1999/2000). It's quite difficult to make the perfect map. Many maps come and go, very few endure the test of time. Dev teams and communities continually try to make the best map and many times flop.

Also as Wolverine said, just because a map or style works in CS doesn't mean it will work in AAPG. I honestly don't know if CS style maps would be great in this game, I guess someone can make a few and find out.

=IK=Doba=

You're right you can argue this for days, and in recent days I have way more fun playing CS (matchmaking only) and I've seen more and more maps that are great and would work great on any game... guns make the map? CS has many more guns than we do...

I just don't get why AA only has this one style of map. They're all the same as I described.. open with random placed objects.. it's boring.

I agree inner would be a bad map cause it is a bad map.. it's just maybe better than the others we have...

There are many good unolayed maps in CS because it seems every community has their favorite 1-3 maps that are played over and over.. happened in every Gen of AA.. and other games.. goes to show the issue are people not the maps.. cause there are some great maps that would work awesome in AA.

Keebler750

PLEASE...you guys that know what a good map would be...take the time to learn THE BASICS in the Editor. I'm not joking or being critical. Put together a basic map with your ideas and then help someone finish off the details.

For basic objects and routes, ANYONE can do it. The difference is whether you know what works. I know how hard it is to get good gameplay out of a map. I'm struggling. I wish I had your talent.

There is no excuse for not putting together basic maps instead of pointing out the shortfall of other maps/designers.

Just do it!

-=}WoLvErInE{=-

That's exactly my point, Doba. You create a map and balance it to the weapons you have in game, and not just make a layout with 2 or 3 routes as you always say and think it will be good/great. It's more than just making 2 or 3 routes.

Answer me this question.....Which game would be easier to balance a map to, aapg or csgo, and Why? Should be easy for you to answer, considering what you always say.

=IK=Doba=

Number one overall used weapon in AA is M4, really not all that difficult to balance around that... here we are also talking gun balance where none of the umm I've played consider gun balance as sight lines are rediculously big making sniper OP on almost every map.

Keebler that response of "you make a map then" is getting old. So until I make a map I'm not allowed to critique another? Come on now.

You see, that's the thing, most of the community's map makers are considered amateurs yet they never seek anyone's insight as if they're pros... even the devs should do what they did with Intercept more and look for map insight.. let alone the community.

It's not me being a prick, it's me trying to help however when people say things like make your own map it's clear they're too good for help... ex Beer me.

-Flops-

=IK=Doba= wrote: »

Number one overall used weapon in AA is M4, really not all that difficult to balance around that... here we are also talking gun balance where none of the umm I've played consider gun balance as sight lines are rediculously big making sniper OP on almost every map.

Keebler that response of "you make a map then" is getting old. So until I make a map I'm not allowed to critique another? Come on now.

You see, that's the thing, most of the community's map makers are considered amateurs yet they never seek anyone's insight as if they're pros... even the devs should do what they did with Intercept more and look for map insight.. let alone the community.

It's not me being a prick, it's me trying to help however when people say things like make your own map it's clear they're too good for help... ex Beer me.

You do realize its not the critiques you make its the fact with you its always the same tired stuff . This map is awesome fun to play and could be even used in a comp setting . When did the competition scene become more about whats "Easiest" to play on and less about the challenge . Like you told keeblar about " You make a map then " statement getting old . so is your "make a map with three hallways so i can run straight to the enemy and do not need any situational awareness . And lastly , give up on the beer me thing its getting old to , they do more for this community then you ever will , thats why your clan plays there a lot . Well except for you lol

4DChessGenius

Plenty of mappers post in these forums looking for insight and rarely get any responses. I've asked Colts to give me some pointers in a couple maps that I've put together. Although, it's hard for people to really give good advice without having a match/scrimmage in the map. Why don't you at the very least take some of the maps that are posted here, get some of your buddies together, scrim on it and then give feedback. I know I'd be completely fine with you guys tearing one of my maps apart and trying to make it better. Maybe others don't want to hear that, but I'm always glad to help the comp community if I have the time or if I'm making a map anyway.


I don't post my maps in this forum for the server operators. I post it here so that players can give me feedback. If I want my map to be played I can just ask Roach to throw it on the Beer Me server and he'll give it a shot.

=IK=Doba=

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Plenty of mappers post in these forums looking for insight and rarely get any responses.

I dont see it.. and Ive only been asked by one.. and guess what he's got an official map out in todays patch.. not because of me, but he sought out info and won.. Lets not pretend there are many seeking advice cause there arent.

Giving a map to Beer me doesnt help a map builder looking for insight.. the only insight you will get is "its fun" out of anyone on that server.

-Flops-

=IK=Doba= wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Plenty of mappers post in these forums looking for insight and rarely get any responses.

I dont see it.. and Ive only been asked by one.. and guess what he's got an official map out in todays patch.. not because of me, but he sought out info and won.. Lets not pretend there are many seeking advice cause there arent.

Giving a map to Beer me doesnt help a map builder looking for insight.. the only insight you will get is "its fun" out of anyone on that server.

Actually thats where you are wrong , mappers put their maps on the beer me server because they get honest feedback from gamers and a lot of it . That is the reason i put mine there .

iNv|roKis-

I am with doba, loads fo cool maps out there. Nothing that will fit us competitively. We need less eye candy, more flow, less gey spots. I think if we took 3-5 months with input solely from comp. A map of CACHE's level can be made. Volcano i believe that's his name, used to play for Team3D.

We don't doubt of anyone capability of building a solid map, but when it comes to map design for competition, there is lack of talent.

4DChessGenius

=IK=Doba= wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Plenty of mappers post in these forums looking for insight and rarely get any responses.

I dont see it.. and Ive only been asked by one.. and guess what he's got an official map out in todays patch.. not because of me, but he sought out info and won.. Lets not pretend there are many seeking advice cause there arent.

Giving a map to Beer me doesnt help a map builder looking for insight.. the only insight you will get is "its fun" out of anyone on that server.

Every map thread I make specifically says "please let me know how it is" or something similar. Am I supposed to reach out to every comp player I have on my steam list and ask for feedback in order to get comp player feedback?

Here's a question... How many UMMs have you actually tried to scrimmage on and who's? I'd be curious to know.

iNv|roKis-

Whiplash27 wrote: »

=IK=Doba= wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Plenty of mappers post in these forums looking for insight and rarely get any responses.

I dont see it.. and Ive only been asked by one.. and guess what he's got an official map out in todays patch.. not because of me, but he sought out info and won.. Lets not pretend there are many seeking advice cause there arent.

Giving a map to Beer me doesnt help a map builder looking for insight.. the only insight you will get is "its fun" out of anyone on that server.

Every map thread I make specifically says "please let me know how it is" or something similar. Am I supposed to reach out to every comp player I have on my steam list and ask for feedback in order to get comp player feedback?

Here's a question... How many UMMs have you actually tried to scrimmage on and who's? I'd be curious to know.

The problem we know out of the gate it won't work. Normally it's due too much foliage, extreme wide open spaces, lack of flow. This map specifically may not play well due to too much space and long distance shot. It throws too much into long distance aiming and luck of timing, positioning versus actual team play. We actually saw this with sandstorm port, where team iog would go long ways out in order to flank and it created a cat and mouse game until the last few seconds.

What we would like to try for once, is closed of map, duo-C4 sites with multiple entry paths for each site that are not open, but have choke point entrances. Sort of like Crossfire bomb site. But we have to have defensive positioning as well, crossfire barely has that.

One last edit. and for the love of god minimize eye candy. This is why I like the paper maps and intercept got a little better once we took away the redness. I only like intercept because i use potato graphics and the walls look like smeared mud, otherwise I would hate because I can't see the camo uniform against the wall. Which is the intended effect, but for comp it's god awful, and we have to use all of our awareness to know a player is where you think they are at.

-Flops-

iNv|roKis- wrote: »

I am with doba, loads fo cool maps out there. Nothing that will fit us competitively. We need less eye candy, more flow, less gey spots. I think if we took 3-5 months with input solely from comp. A map of CACHE's level can be made. Volcano i believe that's his name, used to play for Team3D.

We don't doubt of anyone capability of building a solid map, but when it comes to map design for competition, there is lack of talent.

I do not agree with this at all , there is not a lack of talent there is a lack of communication . Plenty of map designers have what it takes to build a comp map with some input but the input is lacking at best , " less shrubs and grass " isnt really input . I myself recently have tried to form a collaboration with some comp players to build the map they want , but i rarely hear from them , If the comp community were smart they would work with map designers and get the maps they feel would be good for comp made . Wolverine ,whiplash and myself are just three people who have offered and nothing ever comes from it , and it is not on our end . So instead we build fun maps the community enjoys and we also enjoy building.

4DChessGenius

iNv|roKis- wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

=IK=Doba= wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Plenty of mappers post in these forums looking for insight and rarely get any responses.

I dont see it.. and Ive only been asked by one.. and guess what he's got an official map out in todays patch.. not because of me, but he sought out info and won.. Lets not pretend there are many seeking advice cause there arent.

Giving a map to Beer me doesnt help a map builder looking for insight.. the only insight you will get is "its fun" out of anyone on that server.

Every map thread I make specifically says "please let me know how it is" or something similar. Am I supposed to reach out to every comp player I have on my steam list and ask for feedback in order to get comp player feedback?

Here's a question... How many UMMs have you actually tried to scrimmage on and who's? I'd be curious to know.

The problem we know out of the gate it won't work. Normally it's due too much foliage, extreme wide open spaces, lack of flow. This map specifically may not play well due to too much space and long distance shot. It throws too much into long distance aiming and luck of timing, positioning versus actual team play. We actually saw this with sandstorm port, where team iog would go long ways out in order to flank and it created a cat and mouse game until the last few seconds.

Sandstorm had issues like that because of how far out the bounds of the map were. Try my new version of UrbanStorm and let me know if it's similar. The map is a bit tighter so it may not have much of an issue. I'm also considering dropping the North objective for the BDX version and just making a two obj map.

=IK=Doba=

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Every map thread I make

You may.. but you don't exactly account for the entire umm making community.

actually the process of seeking help from a comp community is how the devs did it.. allow us to play a raw version long before the map is complete.. not after its done.

How many were actually scrimmed.. i don't keep track, Rokis might better know that answer.

anyway..
My original statement was why are all the maps made the same... open with randomly placed objects/buildings.. really has nothing to do with testing or having a comp member help out. Flops seems to think my request for a tactical CS like map is getting old meanwhile I dont see 1 .. not a single map made in this style..

Its funny how players like Flops are against it, meanwhile they havent played a well designed map like that, since they dont exist in this game.

4DChessGenius

If it helps, my Night Raid map is a remake of an old CS Beta map (cs_docks). It may be too big for comp though. Also my Mountain Lair is also decently small with only a few routes and practically no open space. Maps are out there, you just need to look for them.

iNv|roKis-

Whiplash27 wrote: »

iNv|roKis- wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

=IK=Doba= wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Plenty of mappers post in these forums looking for insight and rarely get any responses.

I dont see it.. and Ive only been asked by one.. and guess what he's got an official map out in todays patch.. not because of me, but he sought out info and won.. Lets not pretend there are many seeking advice cause there arent.

Giving a map to Beer me doesnt help a map builder looking for insight.. the only insight you will get is "its fun" out of anyone on that server.

Every map thread I make specifically says "please let me know how it is" or something similar. Am I supposed to reach out to every comp player I have on my steam list and ask for feedback in order to get comp player feedback?

Here's a question... How many UMMs have you actually tried to scrimmage on and who's? I'd be curious to know.

The problem we know out of the gate it won't work. Normally it's due too much foliage, extreme wide open spaces, lack of flow. This map specifically may not play well due to too much space and long distance shot. It throws too much into long distance aiming and luck of timing, positioning versus actual team play. We actually saw this with sandstorm port, where team iog would go long ways out in order to flank and it created a cat and mouse game until the last few seconds.

Sandstorm had issues like that because of how far out the bounds of the map were. Try my new version of UrbanStorm and let me know if it's similar. The map is a bit tighter so it may not have much of an issue. I'm also considering dropping the North objective for the BDX version and just making a two obj map.

Tell you what I'll try it tonight I'll take a look at it. Dragoneyez is always on my case about UMM's We will line up some contenders. I also think the official release tonight maps will bomb on a comp level. But I could be wrong. Checkout turned out pretty nicely, overload is horrendous. I guess it's a hit or miss type thing.

iNv|roKis-

=IK=Doba= wrote: »

Whiplash27 wrote: »

Every map thread I make

You may.. but you don't exactly account for the entire umm making community.

actually the process of seeking help from a comp community is how the devs did it.. allow us to play a raw version long before the map is complete.. not after its done.

How many were actually scrimmed.. i don't keep track, Rokis might better know that answer.

anyway..
My original statement was why are all the maps made the same... open with randomly placed objects/buildings.. really has nothing to do with testing or having a comp member help out. Flops seems to think my request for a tactical CS like map is getting old meanwhile I dont see 1 .. not a single map made in this style..

Its funny how players like Flops are against it, meanwhile they havent played a well designed map like that, since they dont exist in this game.

I think we need someone that will work with us for the extent of how long it takes to get a map done. what is it...2-3 months a full time? If someone is willing to do that trust me, there are players who want it. Colts, krux, doba, me dragon ek all got time in our hands and Mikey, krux and I alone got enough csgo experience to know what a good flowing map will be like.