player action times too instant

.shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
edited May 2015 in General Discussion
this game often acts like you have 4 arms/hands instead of 2. things that require 3 points of contact or shouldering your primary.. these actions are super arcade in aapg.
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this is a cancelled bandage... disgusting.
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the player in the above video:
1. stops "sprinting and reloading"
2. readies his weapon for fire
3. shoulders his weapon,
4. pulls out a flash.
5. throws flash.
6. brings back up his primary weapon.
7. shoulders his primary weapon again.
8. begins to bandage himself with 2 hands.
9. cancels that action.
10. pulls up his primary weapon again.
11. fires it....
....all in under 3 seconds. that is disgusting.
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1. the bandage in particular should take longer to perform, and bleeding should occur slower to compensate for that. a player should be encouraged to find cover before bandaging, instead of doing it right then and there with the perk of knowing you can cancel it in an instant and fire your weapon... as if you have 4 hands...
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2. for slide, your camera should be locked in the forward position until the slide ends. you shouldn't be able to move your camera during a slide and then instantly fire your primary when the slide ends, where the game fails to show the rest of the server that your weapon and face is pointing anywhere but forward. slide should be used as a defense tool, not an aggressive offensive tool with a glitch.
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3. you shouldn't be able to reload while sprinting. i think you seem to have forgotten that the game has 3 movement speeds. the default speed is not walking. it is the proper speed to reload, not sprint. just like you can't "hipfire" fire while sprinting, you can't bandage while sprinting, you can't throw a nade while sprinting, you can't move in prone or crouched while sprinting, you also shouldn't be able to reload while sprinting either.
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i could go on with other example but really it's nothing i haven't brought up before and fell on seemingly completely uncompromising or deaf ears. but since we're reaching release, i think this stuff is worth repeating. if you think the game's pace is at a good level right now, you're not looking at the whole picture. be it the short time it takes to get in and out of supported position, or be it how quickly you can fire your gun after a massive list of actions... its just bad.
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this is why the game should have longer times between actions... primarily "pulling out your primary weapon" after a (cancelled or completed) bandage, a revive, secure, interacting with an objective, reloading, throwing a flash, sliding, vaulting, landing a jump, etc... the pace is just so ridiculously fast. it is faster than CSGO and often faster than the COD and BF games. how is that even possibly intended?
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people wouldn't feel it unfair if you nerf how quickly you can pull up your primary weapon if all the actions were tweaked at the same time.. because all actions would be a more deliberate, less instant act, and not just another thoughtless action that happens so fast it just becomes another feature that has lost its "US Army" emphasis and been shoehorned in while really just creating a pew pew arcade experience. that may be your way, but that's not the Army way.


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Comments

  • SithHunterSithHunter Posts: 109Player
    edited May 2015
    I have mixed feelings about these- if they were to be changed then how much and in what way exactly? Anyways I'm sure that I prefer current system to sluggishness of AA3.

    Also OP, last paragraph wasn't necessary at all, it isn't that simple as you put it.
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited May 2015
    edited to emphasize the video has 11 actions in 3 seconds.
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    TLDR: the ability to cancel, change, perform, and/or transition between all of these actions in such an instant manner - cutting out all proper animation periods between them - is what contributes to the extremely fast pace of the game and takes away almost any tactical or consequential feel to the game.


  • SOPMODSOPMOD Posts: 230Player
    It's been repeated several times. But i don't think we've ever heard the DEVs perspective on this...
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    edited May 2015
    The action speeds are quite high. Slowing them would change the pacing of the game drastically. However, I don't think the Devs desire to do that. We've discussed this topic quite a few times. As SOPMOD said, the Devs have never given their perspective on it (they tend to do this with a lot of topics). I doubt they ever will. If they do, it'll probably just be something along the lines of "these speeds are in line with what we wish gameplay to be like"
  • super6-1super6-1 Posts: 100Player
    I honestly think ADS time is something that should be reduced. The game is quick and fast acting in some parts, but still slow, sluggish, and lacking response in others. It doesn't really take that long to scope up a 1x red dot. If a competition shooter can do this:



    I have no doubt that a trained soldier could do it at least a little faster than it is in game.
  • SithHunterSithHunter Posts: 109Player
    edited May 2015
    Super6*1 wrote: »
    I honestly think ADS time is something that should be reduced. The game is quick and fast acting in some parts, but still slow, sluggish, and lacking response in others. It doesn't really take that long to scope up a 1x red dot. If a competition shooter can do this:



    I have no doubt that a trained soldier could do it at least a little faster than it is in game.

    He does it in + - 500ms, isn't scope up time for M4A1 380ms in-game?

    Ah, yeah. Forgot about reaction time, but he seems to react very quickly after the signal on the video.
  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,621Beta Tester
    edited May 2015
    Ya....Jerry is not your average shooter though, eh? :p

    With a handgun, I can go about 1.1sec from a Level 2 (retention) holster to shots on target and 0.15s splits between doubles...but Jerry is some kind of crazy league of gods!!! And.....how old is that guy???

    I don't know if using Jerry as an example is very close to your average soldier training!
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    i'd love to see Jerry, or any human, perform those 11 actions in 3 seconds... bring on the video footage Jerry!
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    i know i heard the devs say/claim something to the effect that "all the actions were timed with motion capture" with DevDoc or w/e.
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    but the game is clearly allowing you to cancel one animation prematurely to start on a new one. that is broken. it might even fit a pace you think is good, but it is disgusting to watch. can we please make it look like you only have 2 hands instead of 4-5?


  • super6-1super6-1 Posts: 100Player
    I guess that'd be good, but IMO, then the game would be unresponsive and sluggish if you didn't at least tweak things like weapon pull-up as well as ADS time. I was just hoping to illustrate that it shouldn't be unreasonable for a trained soldier to sight up his weapon from a high ready stance faster than the 1/3 second they have or whatever it is. Other things like the Accuracy cone for the M24 should be fixed. I've been less than a yard away from someone, no scoped it with the crosshairs squarely on their back, and missed. With a 24 inch barrel, you can't say that's realistic even with low stamina.
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    Combat still seems to have that paintball mentality. Shot placement doesn't seem that critical, and the gun still feels like it's doing its own thing, rather than being shot by you. I don't know how else to put it, but it's very uncomfortable. Almost seems like combat is programmed or staged, and there's no room for destiny, for lack of a better term.
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    I think if all these speed/pace issues are going to be fixed, they should be balanced out so that the game can still move along at something other than a snail's pace. Again, I still think pretty strongly that weapon and combat mechanics on the whole should be reworked.
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    Don't even google Bob Munden ;)
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    edited May 2015
    to be clear to everyone discussing ADS times: nothing i wrote was discussing lengthening ADS times. i think fast ADS times are acceptable.
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    the problem is rather the times that requires you to put your hands somewhere that requires 3 points of contact (2 feet and 1 hand, or 2 hands and 1 foot, or a foot a knee and a hand, etc) and then magically and instantly you have your hands on your primary weapon ready for "hipfire".. magic!


  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    edited May 2015
    i know i heard the devs say/claim something to the effect that "all the actions were timed with motion capture" with DevDoc or w/e.

    I'm not sure if that's completely true, at least not with every action. I doubt Doc can switch weapons or pull out grenades at the speeds that we see in this game.

    Another problem is that they were done in a studio under perfect conditions. I can't imagine a soldier being able to perform all of these actions at that speed with perfection in a real combat. I'm not saying it would be much slower, but I would think there would be at least some slow down in that you want to make sure you're doing things properly, not going for speed records.

    The sprint reload is pretty much done at the same rate that a person can reload the weapon standing still. The game doesn't slow your reload speed when you sprint, which would be much more likely since sprinting makes your actions much more uncoordinated.

    Every action is done without any real transition. The weapon isn't put away, the soldier doesn't reach into his bag for his bandage and then put it back, then grab the weapon again. None of that happens. Everything is instant.
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    exactly


  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 3,621Beta Tester
    I thought we didn't want a simulator?
  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    edited May 2015
    Keebler750 wrote: »
    I thought we didn't want a simulator?
    Everyone wants something different. However, I don't think anyone wants a simulator. The AA series has always been known for having a balance between simulator and arcade. It's a matter of how much in the simulator or arcade direction you want to go. I personally feel the game is still a bit too far on the arcade side of things and that making the changes noted in this thread would go a long way in fixing that. That's just my opinion, though.
  • .shhfiftyfive-.shhfiftyfive- Posts: 495Player
    Keebler750 wrote: »
    I thought we didn't want a simulator?
    there's total simulation.
    there's tactical/strategy/consequence/skill/earn it.
    there's arcade/casual/forgiving/free rewards.
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    somehow some people seem to continuously argue there's only sim vs arcade, and totally miss what sits in the middle.
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    you don't call CSGO a simulation... and you don't call it an arcade experience either. that would be a narrow minded way of trying to boil everything down into 2 boxes.
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    so why is it okay to defend this game's casual arcade status it is in, and detest anything that tries to increase the tactical feel? by claiming tactical = simulation???


  • 4DChessGenius4DChessGenius Posts: 2,161Player
    edited May 2015
    If you had to rate these games on a scale of 1-10 of most arcade (1) to most simulation (10), what would you give them?
    Counter-Strike
    ARMA
    Unreal Tournament
    Quake
    AA2
    AA3
    Insurgency
    Team Fortress
    COD (pick one)
    BF (pick one)
    Halo
    Rainbow 6

    Now figure out where AAPG belongs. When you figure that out, ask yourself if you believe that it's the proper rating for an America's Army game.

    Also, note how not all games can fit as arcade or simulation. There's a lot of in between.
  • super6-1super6-1 Posts: 100Player
    edited May 2015
    I think if you slow all that down, the game would probably move a lot slower and seem a lot less responsive than it already is. Just figured I'd make the case for faster ADS time. Sorry shifty, didn't mean to hijack your post there. I think that combat mechanics and weapons total should be reworked.
    Right now, I'm honestly fine with how fast those action are because it balances out. Not that it shouldn't be changed, but in moderation and harmony with other mechanics.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    This is a good article for keeping everything in perspective a bit as well. The discussion here is largely around "semi-simulationist" vs "simulationist". Classifications shown below are their choices, not mine.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FacklerScaleOfFPSRealism
    Approaching the realistic end of the scale, slower, fatigue-restricted movement, use of crouching/prone positions to increase accuracy and reduce visibility, dominance of sniper rifles and assault rifles, the need to use scopes or iron sights for long-range shots, recoil having a detrimental effect on accuracy (and discouraging the use of automatic fire), limited health, and bleeding, leading to very short combat and an emphasis on the use of cover.

    Classic: TF2, Quake, Unreal Tournament
    Semi-Classic: HALO, Half Life, Bioshock 1, Perfect Dark
    Semi-Simulationist: Battlefield 2142, COD, Gears of War, Combat Arms
    Simulationist: Battlefield (others), ARMA, CS, AA2, AA3, Rainbow Six, Insurgency
  • iNv|eKCommiNv|eKComm Posts: 394Player
    Just fix the bug where you can prematurely cut animations and this would be solved
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