Pings in scoreboard

Why wouldnt we have player pings in scoreboard every game out there has this function,to me it makes a huge difference to know what your players pings are many who have high pings will say it makes no difference but we all know it does??
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Comments

  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Server admins can see all players' pings and each player can see their own.
  • -=DA=-GUNNZZY-=DA=-GUNNZZY Posts: 18Player
    not what i asked srry everyone should be able to everyones ping is my point why wouldnt we be able to?
  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    We removed them from the scoreboards for various reasons that we've discussed in other threads.

    If you are an admin of your own server you can still use an admin command to see the pings of connected players if you wish to enforce your own limits there.
    The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    As non-admins, it's not the role of individual players to police other players' pings.

    Once you accept the premise that individual players shouldn't be kicking or harassing others about their connections, it's hard to make a case for why other players need that information. Leave it to the admins to determine what they feel is acceptable policy and let them manage their server as needed.
  • TheTotsTheTots Posts: 2,279Player
    Perfectly said Saccho. I'll be stealing that for future use.
    The game wasn't made exactly to my specifications, so I feel it's broken.

  • -=DA=-Tw!$t3d-=DA=-Tw!$t3d Posts: 65Player
    I have mixed feelings about this.

    I can See the point of not wanting others to see pings for the reason that Saccho described. However, just like the HUD elements, i believe it should be the server owners choice to have pings seen on the score board.

    Either way, it isn't a deal breaker for me. But is is a dearly missed feature.
  • I have mixed feelings about this.

    I can See the point of not wanting others to see pings for the reason that Saccho described. However, just like the HUD elements, i believe it should be the server owners choice to have pings seen on the score board.

    Either way, it isn't a deal breaker for me. But is is a dearly missed feature.

    I don't think people should be kicked out of a server for their ping unless it violates a server rule. Unfortunately, without knowing which players are playing with half a second of latency I don't know whether to aim at their player models or at the point their player models will be in half a second.

    There should be a latency limit option for servers so that server admins can enforce ping limits even when admins aren't present.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    I have mixed feelings about this.

    I can See the point of not wanting others to see pings for the reason that Saccho described. However, just like the HUD elements, i believe it should be the server owners choice to have pings seen on the score board.

    Either way, it isn't a deal breaker for me. But is is a dearly missed feature.

    I don't think people should be kicked out of a server for their ping unless it violates a server rule. Unfortunately, without knowing which players are playing with half a second of latency I don't know whether to aim at their player models or at the point their player models will be in half a second.

    There should be a latency limit option for servers so that server admins can enforce ping limits even when admins aren't present.

    The other player's ping has no effect on where you should be aiming under the CSHD model.
  • Saccho wrote: »
    I have mixed feelings about this.

    I can See the point of not wanting others to see pings for the reason that Saccho described. However, just like the HUD elements, i believe it should be the server owners choice to have pings seen on the score board.

    Either way, it isn't a deal breaker for me. But is is a dearly missed feature.

    I don't think people should be kicked out of a server for their ping unless it violates a server rule. Unfortunately, without knowing which players are playing with half a second of latency I don't know whether to aim at their player models or at the point their player models will be in half a second.

    There should be a latency limit option for servers so that server admins can enforce ping limits even when admins aren't present.

    The other player's ping has no effect on where you should be aiming under the CSHD model.

    2 problems with that. Firstly, even the most advanced hitbox reconciliation systems cannot factor for that kind of latency. Any ping upwards of 150 ms is outside the range of reason for all intents and purposes. If my ping is 50 ms and someone else's ping is 280 and I can bounce paintballs off of their head and see it on my screen but it has no effect on their's then it is proof of concept. I even have recorded sessions (on a client-side HD server) where I can see hits take place on another players head without them going down. Secondly, I play primarily on a server that uses Server Side Hit Detection.

    As I said, it comes down to clans policing their servers in regards to ping limits but realistically anyone playing with a ping that is higher than around 150 ms is doing it for one of two reasons: 1. They know that it gives them the advantage as they warp around and peek corners faster than it takes the server to register or 2. They live far away from most existing servers and their ping is as low as it will ever get even if it is ~300 ms.

    Giving server owners the ability to set server-side limits on latency will provide a way for them to keep their players happy without requiring them to have an admin on at all times.
  • m_hermannm_hermann Posts: 656Moderator
    Saccho wrote: »
    I have mixed feelings about this.

    I can See the point of not wanting others to see pings for the reason that Saccho described. However, just like the HUD elements, i believe it should be the server owners choice to have pings seen on the score board.

    Either way, it isn't a deal breaker for me. But is is a dearly missed feature.

    I don't think people should be kicked out of a server for their ping unless it violates a server rule. Unfortunately, without knowing which players are playing with half a second of latency I don't know whether to aim at their player models or at the point their player models will be in half a second.

    There should be a latency limit option for servers so that server admins can enforce ping limits even when admins aren't present.

    The other player's ping has no effect on where you should be aiming under the CSHD model.

    2 problems with that. Firstly, even the most advanced hitbox reconciliation systems cannot factor for that kind of latency. Any ping upwards of 150 ms is outside the range of reason for all intents and purposes. If my ping is 50 ms and someone else's ping is 280 and I can bounce paintballs off of their head and see it on my screen but it has no effect on their's then it is proof of concept. I even have recorded sessions (on a client-side HD server) where I can see hits take place on another players head without them going down. Secondly, I play primarily on a server that uses Server Side Hit Detection.

    As I said, it comes down to clans policing their servers in regards to ping limits but realistically anyone playing with a ping that is higher than around 150 ms is doing it for one of two reasons: 1. They know that it gives them the advantage as they warp around and peek corners faster than it takes the server to register or 2. They live far away from most existing servers and their ping is as low as it will ever get even if it is ~300 ms.

    Giving server owners the ability to set server-side limits on latency will provide a way for them to keep their players happy without requiring them to have an admin on at all times.

    It's really amazing how much ping misinformation is out there and how easily it gets twisted and repeated.
    This explanation doesn't even make any sense, it's certainly not a proof of concept.

    Computers have been powerful enough to compensate for latency for a long time.
  • -=DA=-GUNNZZY-=DA=-GUNNZZY Posts: 18Player
    edited October 2015
    Strongly want to point oout every game out there that i know of has this feature for the replies i respect what you say but im sure your pings are well over any us players so the fact that you say ping doesnt matter is truely incorrect sir it does matter....


    Ping vs. Latency: What’s the Difference?


    Latency and ping are two closely related concepts that have a huge impact on how fast or slow your Internet connection feels, but are rarely mentioned in ISP ad copy. Cable and telephone companies sell their services solely on the basis of bandwidth, typically expressed in megabits per second, or Mbps.



    The problem with emphasizing bandwidth is that it’s just one component in the perceived speed of an Internet connection. The simplest way to understand the difference between latency and bandwidth is to picture a water pipe. Bandwidth is the total amount of water that can flow through the pipe in a given period of time (typically expressed in gallons per minute or gallons per hour). If you have a 10Mbit connection, you can download data at a maximum of 10 megabits per second.

    What is Latency?

    Latency, in contrast, is the amount of time it takes for the water that enters the pipe at one end to exit at the other. If your pipe is just a few feet long, water exits the bottom of the pipe almost as quickly as it flows into the top. If the pipe is 50 to 100 feet long, it’ll take several seconds before the water starts to flow.

    Now, imagine that instead of keeping the water flowing in one smooth stream, you have to turn it off and on again every 10 seconds. Each time you do, it takes several seconds for the pipe to fill again (for the purposes of this example, assume that the water inside the pipe vanishes as soon as the valve is closed and must refill when the valve is opened again). If it takes five seconds for water to traverse the pipe and you can only turn the pipe on for 10 seconds at a time, you can only deliver five seconds of water to the end user in every 10 second period.

    One way to “solve” this problem is to make our hypothetical water pipe larger. If you can only run water for 10 seconds and it takes five seconds to start flowing, pumping more water per second would seem to solve the problem. If your goal is to fill a series of buckets, then moving more water per second allows you to fill the buckets more quickly.

    If, on the other hand, you’re trying to take a shower, then moving more water per second is useless. The goal isn’t to be wetter during the flow period, it’s to maintain a steady, consistent stream of water. What you need, in this situation, is less latency — if the pipe can only open for 10 seconds at a time, you want 10 seconds worth of water to come pouring out that pipe.

    Let’s leave the water pipe example for now and return to the real world. Every time you visit a website, stream a video, or download a program, it takes your computer a certain amount of time to contact the host and begin the data retrieval process. If you have multiple tabs open, your computer may be performing dozens or hundreds of these connections per second—juggling incoming versus outgoing traffic, and, in some cases, prioritizing content that needs to be delivered immediately, like Netflix, over traffic that is less latency sensitive, like a background webpage refresh. How long it takes to initiate these connections, and how quickly the data arrives, is critical to the Internet connection’s perceived speed.

    Which is more important depends entirely on what you’re attempting to accomplish. If you’re downloading huge files, you probably care more about bandwidth than latency. If you’re trying to watch high-definition video, both are equally important. If you’re playing an online game, latency may be far more important than bandwidth.

  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player

    2 problems with that. Firstly, even the most advanced hitbox reconciliation systems cannot factor for that kind of latency. Any ping upwards of 150 ms is outside the range of reason for all intents and purposes. If my ping is 50 ms and someone else's ping is 280 and I can bounce paintballs off of their head and see it on my screen but it has no effect on their's then it is proof of concept. I even have recorded sessions (on a client-side HD server) where I can see hits take place on another players head without them going down. Secondly, I play primarily on a server that uses Server Side Hit Detection.

    That's why I said in a CSHD model :) With CSHD, there's no hitbox position reconciliation to worry about. Hits on your screen count as hits to the server. The other player's ping has exactly zero effect on your client's calculations for hits. What you see is what you get.

    SSHD attempts to guess what your client saw at the time you took the shot. I think of it as "inaccurate fake CSHD" and see it as more error-prone.
  • SacchoSaccho Posts: 1,577Player
    Strongly want to point oout every game out there that i know of has this feature for the replies i respect what you say but im sure your pings are well over any us players so the fact that you say ping doesnt matter is truely incorrect sir it does matter..

    (...)

    Now, imagine that instead of keeping the water flowing in one smooth stream, you have to turn it off and on again every 10 seconds. Each time you do, it takes several seconds for the pipe to fill again (for the purposes of this example, assume that the water inside the pipe vanishes as soon as the valve is closed and must refill when the valve is opened again). If it takes five seconds for water to traverse the pipe and you can only turn the pipe on for 10 seconds at a time, you can only deliver five seconds of water to the end user in every 10 second period.
    I play from the US on US servers with 48-72ms ping depending on just how close to home I stay. I have no personal stake in saying the algorithms work fine.

    The water pipe analogy doesn't really fit here since the game server and client maintain constant streams of data. There's no request/acknowledge handshake happening and that's at the heart of the analogy's explanation of latency.
  • -=DA=-Tw!$t3d-=DA=-Tw!$t3d Posts: 65Player
    As with anything that uses UDP, when the connection is slow, (High pings) packets start to arrive both to the client and host out of order, causing Lag.

    This isnt at all what the topic should be about.

    Every FPS game any of us have every played online, has ping on the scoreboard.

    Bring it back devs Please!!
  • IO_i_OIIO_i_OI Posts: 1,107Player
    As with anything that uses UDP, when the connection is slow, (High pings) packets start to arrive both to the client and host out of order, causing Lag.

    This isnt at all what the topic should be about.

    Every FPS game any of us have every played online, has ping on the scoreboard.

    Bring it back devs Please!!

    I feel for ya! However, several other threads to bring back player ping only results in a CLOSED thread.
    googley avatar aapg


  • -=DA=-Tw!$t3d-=DA=-Tw!$t3d Posts: 65Player
    If the Dev's Feel that strongly about not bring back the ping display to ignore the posts of the players then so be it. I find that far fetched though. They were most likely closed because the fine line between debate and flaming arguments were crossed.

    Im sure this will not be the last thread to address this. I hear it all the time..."Why did the get rid of pings?" And as long as pings aren't displayed, someone, some where is going to ask that same question.

    Plain and simple though, Its not a game breaker for me. I just don't see the point. Every online game there is, players with high pings catch and ear full from their fellow players. Removing the ping display only makes it worse, now instead of being able to see the guy you just Missed, wasent because he was lagging, its just because you missed. Instead of guys being able to check the score board and see that that player is not lagging, just assume they are because they cant see it.

    I have heard "That guy probably has a ping of 300, i shot the !@#% out of him and he didn't die." more times than i have fingers and toes to count. Meanwhile, on our 7 servers, i've seen maybe 3 "high pingers".

    So in attempting to solve a problem with guys getting harassed over their connections, i feel they have only created a bigger one. There is no certainty on what a players ping is, so naturally everyone is going to assume the worst.

    Im not shaking a finger at the DEV team by any means. I understand why it was done. But i also see the issue it's bound to create...... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
  • m_hermann wrote: »
    Saccho wrote: »
    I have mixed feelings about this.

    I can See the point of not wanting others to see pings for the reason that Saccho described. However, just like the HUD elements, i believe it should be the server owners choice to have pings seen on the score board.

    Either way, it isn't a deal breaker for me. But is is a dearly missed feature.

    I don't think people should be kicked out of a server for their ping unless it violates a server rule. Unfortunately, without knowing which players are playing with half a second of latency I don't know whether to aim at their player models or at the point their player models will be in half a second.

    There should be a latency limit option for servers so that server admins can enforce ping limits even when admins aren't present.

    The other player's ping has no effect on where you should be aiming under the CSHD model.

    2 problems with that. Firstly, even the most advanced hitbox reconciliation systems cannot factor for that kind of latency. Any ping upwards of 150 ms is outside the range of reason for all intents and purposes. If my ping is 50 ms and someone else's ping is 280 and I can bounce paintballs off of their head and see it on my screen but it has no effect on their's then it is proof of concept. I even have recorded sessions (on a client-side HD server) where I can see hits take place on another players head without them going down. Secondly, I play primarily on a server that uses Server Side Hit Detection.

    As I said, it comes down to clans policing their servers in regards to ping limits but realistically anyone playing with a ping that is higher than around 150 ms is doing it for one of two reasons: 1. They know that it gives them the advantage as they warp around and peek corners faster than it takes the server to register or 2. They live far away from most existing servers and their ping is as low as it will ever get even if it is ~300 ms.

    Giving server owners the ability to set server-side limits on latency will provide a way for them to keep their players happy without requiring them to have an admin on at all times.

    It's really amazing how much ping misinformation is out there and how easily it gets twisted and repeated.
    This explanation doesn't even make any sense, it's certainly not a proof of concept.

    Computers have been powerful enough to compensate for latency for a long time.

    Latency compensation has nothing to do with processing power. Even with a system in place that 'guesses' fairly accurately the game itself only has a limited amount of time to make the call. Higher ping = more inaccurate 'guesses' and therefore more bad calls. I'm not suggesting that the devs do the impossible and solve the problem of latency on a live-action platform, I would just like the ability to know what to expect when I come around a corner: will I see a player model where (or close to where) the player actually is? Will my hits register?

    I regularly play against people who have historically had a ping of 350 or more. That might not seem like much but that is more than 1/3 of a second. Add on the fact that my ping is around 65 and you have nearly a half-second between information from their client reaching my client. My rig kills threads when they fail to respond for more than 1/3 of a second.

    Bottom Line: The entire playerbase should not have to tolerate jumpy enemy player models and faulty hit detection (due to ping, not the system) or be forced to ignore the issue because some people claim it isn't an issue. Hiding the pings entirely only furthers the issue. At the very least server owners should be able to decide if they want pings visible or not. Whether that ever actually happens is up to the devs.
  • Saccho wrote: »
    Strongly want to point oout every game out there that i know of has this feature for the replies i respect what you say but im sure your pings are well over any us players so the fact that you say ping doesnt matter is truely incorrect sir it does matter..

    (...)

    Now, imagine that instead of keeping the water flowing in one smooth stream, you have to turn it off and on again every 10 seconds. Each time you do, it takes several seconds for the pipe to fill again (for the purposes of this example, assume that the water inside the pipe vanishes as soon as the valve is closed and must refill when the valve is opened again). If it takes five seconds for water to traverse the pipe and you can only turn the pipe on for 10 seconds at a time, you can only deliver five seconds of water to the end user in every 10 second period.
    I play from the US on US servers with 48-72ms ping depending on just how close to home I stay. I have no personal stake in saying the algorithms work fine.

    The water pipe analogy doesn't really fit here since the game server and client maintain constant streams of data. There's no request/acknowledge handshake happening and that's at the heart of the analogy's explanation of latency.

    Your router is sorting packets constantly. Even in a situation like this client-server model your information still only comes in packets. This happens so quickly that there is only a negligible effect on your latency.

    Handshakes are not what latency measures. Even a constant stream of data take (insert ping here) to travel from server to client and vice-versa.

    In simpler terms: Loading a web page directly from a server with a measured latency of 300 will take the same amount of time to transfer X amount of data as a game connected to a server with a measured latency of 300.
  • Saccho wrote: »
    As non-admins, it's not the role of individual players to police other players' pings.

    Once you accept the premise that individual players shouldn't be kicking or harassing others about their connections, it's hard to make a case for why other players need that information. Leave it to the admins to determine what they feel is acceptable policy and let them manage their server as needed.

    While I agree that it's not the individual player's responsibility to police servers for other players pings I would like to know if I'm in a server with someone who wants to take advantage of their high ping.
  • -Hades-Hades Posts: 28Player
    If some of these posts were true and that having a high ping is a disadvantage for the other players with low ping then why aren't Australian servers full all of the time with American and Euro players?
    Because it's not true. I frequently visit US servers and I tend to smash most US players and i still have almost a quarter of a second disadvantage over them @ 250ms.
    Americans come to Australian servers every now and then and all they do is complain how their ping is getting them killed. It's not that, it's because Australian players are generally better than American ones and that the Australians ping is lower thereby giving the Australians the hometown advantage.
    That my friends is the reality.
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