Posted: 05 Mar 2010 20:52

http://forum.americasarmy.com/...hlight=

})FA.Chaminade2011 wrote:

The rule of thumb in close quarters combat situation is, the first person to shoot and hit wins. The problem is, in AA3.x the game is more unrealistic than AA2.x insofar as the ability to take damage is concerned. People tank bullets, it takes about 5 shots to kill a person.. this is rediculous -- one shot incapacitates someone 99% of the time. And they're not getting up from 1 shot and running to kill 3 more people. I have better aim and better hand-eye than anyone reading this post but I unload bullets into people and albeit I win most of the time I will put 5 bullets into them and the OPFOR will get off one shot and headshot me by luck. Maybe it's on purpose, but the age of a "good player" is over. Even the soldier with the best hand-eye and fastest reflexes will lose to a inexperienced player because of a lucky headshot or bullet lag. That's not how it should be, the person who hits first should win in a CQB situation, at least in real life.

If you read up on 5.56x45mm NATO Ball ammunition you will see that there is "real life" criticism that it indeed takes too many rounds to drop a person. That it requires 7 to 10 inches of penetration of soft tissue before this round begins to yaw and fragment which causes greater wounding capacity.

Basically we're just poking holes in the enemy, if you don't hit a major artery or organ, the enemy will keep on fighting.

From personal experience; I have been shot in the leg and I was definitely not incapacitated.

I believe the game represents this ammunition rather well.

"Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5...mm_NATO

Posted: 05 Mar 2010 23:55

I'm glad you finally bring some facts! Unlike the previous discussion...

I'm sorry about your injury, but from personal experience when you were wounded you were not able to walk, no?

The whole point I was making was really concentrated around close quarters combat. Namely, that the person who puts the first "hole" in the other person wins. The soldier with the fastest reflexes, best aim, and smartest tactics should win CQB! If it was all luck we'd all just play Risk.

But what was happening to me a lot recently was I was putting bullets into people, based on the sound at least 3 or 4 bullets. Sometimes to the point of running out of ammo! And yet they remained unphased and proceeded to, in about 6 bullets, headshot me. But if I put 2 bullets into someone, they would be on the ground in pain! Especially if they were shot in the back, where their adrenaline wouldn't be flowing because they didn't know what had hit them.

Carnell, I'm not talking about necessarily how much damage they do. I know that's what the thread title says. I mean how people are so unphased when I put bullets into them. But I don't have bad aim!

Honestly, recently playing I haven't had too many problems. I probably posted that thread because I was [TOS Violation] off when I got killed by a bad player a couple of times.

Posted: 05 Mar 2010 23:58

You should of named it "Wounding effects while getting shot" instead of "Bullets just don't do enough damage" then

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 02:12

Anyone in favor of going back to Vietnam era 5.56 rounds that when hitting the body went down through every major orgran and utterly scrambled up the insides?

Would certainty be a nice one shot kill there...

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 07:38

The Vietnam era rounds performed as they did because of the twist rate (1:12) in the barrels. The bullets were sometimes keyholing at 25 meters without hitting anything. Accuracy was terrible. They'd also keyhole if they hit a leaf or branch, which newer 5.56 rounds don't do as a result of a tighter twist (1:9/1:7). The older style rounds also shed their jackets before they reached their target in some instances.

There is no magic bullet. I know people that have been shot with a .45 (which has a reputation as a man stopper) and he wasn't slowed down in the least. I know a guy who had his calf shredded by a 5.56. He wasn't slowed down either. He took the rifle away from the guy and beat him nearly to death with it. Then there are the people who take a .22 long rifle (just one) and die on the spot. It's about shot placement. Period. One of my squaddies is a Ranger and was in A-Stan before the war broke out in Iraq. He said they just kept shooting till the bad guys were incapacitated. Center punch them with a couple rounds is more effective than a whole mag emptied into extremities.

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 12:03

Thanks for the insight ruggbutt.

The problem is I did center punch them, with at least 3 rounds. Just because there's body armor doesn't mean the bullets don't penetrate at least partially, or knock them down or at least slow them down a little.

And if I hit them in the arm, they shouldn't be able to pick up a gun, let alone aim. I can't aim straight when I have a bruised arm, let alone profuse bleeding from it!

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 14:10

If memory serves it takes 2 - 3 bullets to penetrate the body armor and another 2 or 3 to incapacitate someone.

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 14:20

The British Army used to use the SLR which fired 7.62 mm rounds, a very accurate rifle with excellent stopping power. I could never understand why they dropped this weapon in favour of the SA80 which uses the NATO 5.56 round. It's of interest that they have started issuing the 7.62 firing Sharpshooter rifle to troops in Afghanistan

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 14:30

Hi, with the M4A1 shooting in controled bursts of two shots you can achive better targets than with the three shots burst and full auto; at least i do it. In game when you're shot, you stop aiming down the sights and you're moved a bit backwards, which i think that's good; the bad or weird thing that i've seen is that shooting in full auto at 3m with a M4A1 or with the M249 many times if not most, you don't do nothing to the NME and i think that that should be reviewed.
The vests that we carry in game are supposed to have a titanium plate on the chest and other on the back and booth can't be pierced by 5'56x45 bullets, but a 7'62x51 and a 7'64x39 could and we don't have those calibers in game. Even if we had 7'62 in game... they have to hit you on vital organs for get an instant kill, but the posterior shock could kill you. Let's C ya

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 19:24

Okay if we're wearing titanium plates then we shouldn't be able to sprint as fast...

because sprinting even in the open it's really difficult to hit the person just because they run so fast. Wayyyy faster than AA2 where there was no body armor.

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 19:54

Its not titanium, its ceramic. I also heard that 7.62x39 has horrible armor penetration due to its slower velocity, and the 5.56 round causes shock due to its high velocity.
And yes, the body armor in game can absorb 3 shots before failing. I agree that people should be knocked down when they're getting shot or something like that.

Posted: 07 Mar 2010 05:14

But than you would have absolutely no chance of surviving a battle, so whoever starts firing first will survive 99% of the time.

It would also result in users getting in spectator mode quite a bit faster.

Would that really make the game more fun?

Posted: 07 Mar 2010 12:49

Would certainty make it fun for defense...

"Okay guys go camp under Cover and put fire on all the entrances..."

But, if we did use different rounds than the "go through the body without passing anything." what would happen to field dressings?

Posted: 07 Mar 2010 13:29

It does take some good bullets hitting the target to take him down, but heck, if you need 6 bullets to kill / incap someone, play with your team.

2 persons can put lead in one target at the same time, double the speed than 1 person, not to mention that the enemy can only target 1 target accurately ( results may differ ) and if you do get incap, you have more chances that your buddy kills / incap the NME and then heals you right away.
The times I encountered 2 NMEs at the same time and was all by myself, I first had to decide who to shoot first, then aim for the shoot and then take lead from the other NME. There is no need to mention that most times I ended up dead and not killing anyone

It is fun and rewarding goint through a round / match with the most kills, but it is more rewarding playing the whole time, rather than just sitting in spectator 'cause you got killed by being a lonewolf.

Posted: 07 Mar 2010 14:00

darksmaster923 wrote:

Its not titanium, its ceramic. I also heard that 7.62x39 has horrible armor penetration due to its slower velocity

Hi, if it's ceramic, then it shouldn't stand more than two shots in 3 inches, the 2nd shot will most likely pass thru, if it's ceramic; i was meaning 7.92x57mm (K98K ammo) that's deadly at more than 200m on ceramic plated vests, most likely at 350m. But with a titanium plate... then that's other thing; you're safe to as close as 10m if there's nothing wrong with the plates.
Without the titanium plates you'll be dead or directly incapacitated with a 5.56x45 burst, and your life spectancy will be of like 15 to 20mins, but as we all know, the life is a very resistent virus; looking at the stances that the character models are they should fall to the ground even with two 5.56 hits on the chest if they're not high on adrenaline, over all at close range. I think that as we see 'em with the upper arm protections they are suppossed to have titanium plates too, as they're wearing the max armour protection without face shields or wear an Antificier armour. Let's C ya