Mouse DPI and In-game Mouse setting

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  • Razer DeathAdder with 12" x 14" Corsair gaming mousepad.
    1600dpi
    3 in game

    I have always preferred low sensitivity to steady my aim.
  • !Darin!Darin Posts: 304Player

    Actually, it is! By definition, dots per inch is resolution. Dots per inch is a term snatched from printers. Dots per inch was used to describe the amount of ink (dots) were used within an inch of paper. Now ppi is more commonly used to mirror new screen terminology.

    You're right. I just think that's where the confusion lies. People generally think of resolution as improved clarity/accuracy and that's not really what happens when you increase DPI on a mouse.
    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 949Player
    .sauce wrote: »

    Actually, it is! By definition, dots per inch is resolution. Dots per inch is a term snatched from printers. Dots per inch was used to describe the amount of ink (dots) were used within an inch of paper. Now ppi is more commonly used to mirror new screen terminology.

    You're right. I just think that's where the confusion lies. People generally think of resolution as improved clarity/accuracy and that's not really what happens when you increase DPI on a mouse.

    Actually it is. that's exactly the reason you won't find any recent good gaming mouse with a sensor that has 400 or 800 or even 1000 native DPI. If increasing the sensor quality with higher native DPI was something less accurate no company would have invested in research on that department.

    There is absolutely no scientific proof that playing with native high DPI would make your aiming accuracy suffer. I am leaving in game sensitivity out of the equation.



  • !Darin!Darin Posts: 304Player
    edited September 2015
    I never said raising DPI makes your accuracy worse. I just said it's pointless at best, at worst you end up reducing sensitivity (software) to make up for the high DPI, ruining the value of your native DPI.

    "Raising the DPI is completely against the logic of performance"
    "DPI... is a translation of how many pixels I travel when I move my hand by one inch. It is only this."
    ~ François Morier, Senior Engineer at Logitech.

    He's one of those scientists that do the research you were talking about. Bragging about DPI he leaves to the marketing team.

    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
  • Bam4DBam4D Posts: 954Player
    Polls per MilSecond matters much more than DPI. FYI ;)

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  • Keebler750Keebler750 Posts: 1,228Player, Beta Tester
    So they merely have higher DPI numbers as a marketing ploy?!!!!! No way!

    Well. My settings work great. My accuracy, speed onto target etc is not undermined by DPI....but rather poor map knowledge and strategy.

    :pensive:
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  • !Darin!Darin Posts: 304Player
    It isn't all marketing. You still need a sensor and a sensor has to have a cpi. Beyond that different games have different expecations. Rts and moba games tend to atract higher dpis because pixel accuracy is less important than speed. But higher clearly does not mean better, according to the engineer it more often has a potential to be worse. Even then we are talking very tiny flaws than probably would go unnoticed.
    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 949Player
    edited September 2015
    I am not talking about the insane numbers of DPI like 12000 with boost where the sensor can handle only 4000 natively.

    And surely there is a marketing aspect to it like photo cameras racing for megapixel without proper sensor or chip to back it up which causes grain and noise...
    At the end it depends on your hardware. On mine I will get much better accuracy with 1900 DPI compared to 400 DPI. But I also set my in game sensitivity low that I can't do 360 with a small mouse movement.

    The argument brought earlier was with higher DPI the precision suffers due to registered unwanted hand movements. This argument is as ridiculous as not driving a F1 car in F1 Race cos it's hard to drive...
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 949Player
    edited September 2015
    .sauce wrote: »
    It isn't all marketing. You still need a sensor and a sensor has to have a cpi. Beyond that different games have different expecations. Rts and moba games tend to atract higher dpis because pixel accuracy is less important than speed. But higher clearly does not mean better, according to the engineer it more often has a potential to be worse. Even then we are talking very tiny flaws than probably would go unnoticed.

    Thats the point.. it might be worst, depending on other aspects as the quality of sensor and mouse chip to process that information coming out of the sensor, the surface you scan, the way you hold and move the mouse and finally the game you play.

    But to suggest that high DPI (specially with religiously believed "pros only play with 400-800 DPI cos anything above is bad" argument) lead automatically to bad precision is simply a belief.. nothing to do with science or logic.


    EDIT: @ sauce: that video you preseted is already almost 3 years old. When he made that statement logitech was fightig the insane DPI marketing of razor. You should ask the same guy what he thinks of the new mice from logitech with the latest sensor and engine.. :)
  • !Darin!Darin Posts: 304Player
    edited September 2015
    You seriously just keep making stuff up every time some genuine information is sent your way.

    http://blog.logitech.com/2011/06/09/introducing-the-logitech-optical-gaming-mouse-g400-2/

    3600 DPI, over 4 years ago. This guy isn't selling anything (other than facts). But instead of LISTENING to what he has to say, you glossed over, looked at the date of the video and went in another direction. Listen to what he has to say. That is all the science you need on the subject and you are ignoring it.
    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
  • SSKtidididiSSKtidididi Posts: 171Player
    edited September 2015
    800 @ 6 will be never the same as 400 @ 12
    2000 @ 3 will be never the same as 1000 @ 6
    and mine 400 @ 12 will be neve the same as 8000 @ 0.6

    You can even buy 20000 DPI mouse and play with sensitivity around 0.25 to but you will never reach the same precision and accuracy which you have with 400 @ 12, for example.

    You reach the best accuracy when you use low DPI and low sensitivity. You must be really talented player to get excellent accuracy and precision with medium DPI combined with high sensitivity. Cheers, oVie.

    24zcd9c.png

    Let's say player 0 uses sensitivity X playing the game, editing graphic, whatever. Both activities requires high precision.

    DPI means dots per inch. In detail it means how much dots the coursor will move on your screen. Let's say one blue dot equals 50 dots.

    The sensitivity X equals, lets say, 12 in game and 6 in Windows (default). Mouse precision off.

    What can we say looking at the graphic? With stable sensitivity X mouse will make much more precisious moves when the DPI is set to lower one. If you set the DPI to higher, mouse coursor will go further. That means the precision is lower.

    Interesting thing is what will happen, if DPI 400 with sens 12 will be set to DPI 800 with sens 6. The answer is nothing good. It brings the negative acceleration effect.

    Mouse precision is not better with higher DPI. Higher DPi is made specially for people who works . For gamers it is only marketing, nothing more.

    When you set your DPI to lower values, your coursor will travel the same distance on every direction on every move of your hand. This is precision.

    Higher DPI requires hours, days, weeks, months practice to get used to new setting. Personally I was playing with higher DPI values and medium sensitivity for very long time. When I decided to switch it to low dpi + low sens combination I realised I was stupid and Logitech bought me with high DPI advertisment.

    The worst thing is compensating the mouse setting by adding DPI and making the sensitivity lower.

    Of course DPI and mouse sens combination is very personal thing. Anyway setting your mouse over, let's say, 2000 DPI tells you need much more knowledge and experience to play the games.

    Have a good day. This is my 5 cents to people who thinks they know everything about mouse DPI and sensitivty but play still bad.
  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 949Player
    edited September 2015
    .sauce wrote: »
    You seriously just keep making stuff up every time some genuine information is sent your way.

    http://blog.logitech.com/2011/06/09/introducing-the-logitech-optical-gaming-mouse-g400-2/

    3600 DPI, over 4 years ago. This guy isn't selling anything (other than facts). But instead of LISTENING to what he has to say, you glossed over, looked at the date of the video and went in another direction. Listen to what he has to say. That is all the science you need on the subject and you are ignoring it.

    I did watch that video already 2 years ago. And by the time it was made Logitech didn't have an answer to high DPI mice sold by razor in terms of DPI numbers. And if you present tech facts that are outdated already to prove your point can't help you. And you are the one making assumptions about what I know and do about which you have no idea at all.

    I could dig up some video that claims a certain tech is the best way to go but it won't say anything what's recent and what's better for the time being..

    @tidididi: can you clarify what you mean by negative acceleration effect. Cos the distance would be the same in your example.

    On the other hand I share your opinion about max 2000 DPI because I had better experience adjusting my personal mouse setting around 5 in game sensitivity and going small incremental adjustments for DPI. I had more trouble with lower in-game sensitivity to find my sweet spot.

    But to sum up. The arguments most of anti high DPI players bring is too limited to general numbers. You don't take in consideration other factors like which vendor, which sensor, what kinda firmware and engine for the mouse and finally the play style of the user. Thats why I said in my original post "with a decent mouse"
  • SSKtidididiSSKtidididi Posts: 171Player
    edited September 2015
    @tidididi: can you clarify what you mean by negative acceleration effect. Cos the distance would be the same in your example.

    This is exactly the same effect which you mentioned in your post, when you feel unconfortable with higher DPI and lower sensitivity. It provides to misscalculation. You just do not hit the point which you want hit with your pointer.

    You can try different settings with DPI/sens recaulculated from your current settings.

    http://www.users.on.net/~frankros/DPI-calc.php

    Try this tool to recalculate, then play, than come back here and say: tidididi you were right :D

  • !Darin!Darin Posts: 304Player
    edited September 2015
    The science of mouse hardware and DPI has not changed at all. I'm not making assumptions, I'm presenting you with evidence. Something you haven't done at all this entire time. I'm done though. Respect, see you in game pie. : )

    And fwiw, I still don't claim that higher DPI is worse, I just said it has the potential to be worse in combination with Windows and game settings. Even then, as I said, the differences would be hard to notice. I also get fighting with in game sensitivities and finding sweet spots. In the end it is preference. What we "feel" is what matters.
    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
  • [ENG]Uni-Sol[ENG]Uni-Sol Posts: 1,943Player
    I don't know about anyone else but after 8 pages of DPI .. I'm up for a new opt in :mrgreen:


  • =IK=Doba==IK=Doba= Posts: 1,798Player
    edited September 2015
    .sauce wrote: »

    But to sum up. The arguments most of anti high DPI players bring is too limited to general numbers. You don't take in consideration other factors like which vendor, which sensor, what kinda firmware and engine for the mouse and finally the play style of the user. Thats why I said in my original post "with a decent mouse"

    Not really concerned with how the whole DPI works.. but like EK pointed out, High sensitivity creates more human error, doesnt matter what sensor or any other factors... Thats the biggest reason ppl play with low sens
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  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 949Player
    edited September 2015
    .sauce wrote: »
    The science of mouse hardware and DPI has not changed at all. I'm not making assumptions, I'm presenting you with evidence. Something you haven't done at all this entire time. I'm done though. Respect, see you in game pie. : )

    And fwiw, I still don't claim that higher DPI is worse, I just said it has the potential to be worse in combination with Windows and game settings. Even then, as I said, the differences would be hard to notice. I also get fighting with in game sensitivities and finding sweet spots. In the end it is preference. What we "feel" is what matters.

    The mouse hardware and sensors changed alot to better in the last 2 years. No idea where you get your facts about it. I am also professionally very interested in sensor improvement in optical applications.

    And sauce no hard feelings but you did make assumptions about how I handled your video link.
    .sauce wrote: »

    3600 DPI, over 4 years ago. This guy isn't selling anything (other than facts). But instead of LISTENING to what he has to say, you glossed over, looked at the date of the video and went in another direction. Listen to what he has to say. That is all the science you need on the subject and you are ignoring it.

    I didn't ignore the stuff that guy said in his video, in fact I presented you the BG information why I think he published such video. If you think it has no PR value, its your opinion I can respect that. But it's not uncommon to present marketing claims packed in scientific presentations. I am not claiming that the high DPI sensors back then were in fact more accurate than Logitech technology btw.
    .sauce wrote: »
    You seriously just keep making stuff up every time some genuine information is sent your way.

    And this is kinda personal I would say.. but I leave it as it is..


  • -SD-DELTON-SD-DELTON Posts: 302Player
    Its what you get used to if it feels good to you keep it.
    Like I said in my last post I use 2400dpi and 20 in game its good for me.
    All the story's on this topic will only confuse you because its their personal preference
    change and try until it feels good for you :)
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  • K!Dz.applePIEK!Dz.applePIE Posts: 949Player
    @tidididi: can you clarify what you mean by negative acceleration effect. Cos the distance would be the same in your example.

    This is exactly the same effect which you mentioned in your post, when you feel unconfortable with higher DPI and lower sensitivity. It provides to misscalculation. You just do not hit the point which you want hit with your pointer.

    You can try different settings with DPI/sens recaulculated from your current settings.

    http://www.users.on.net/~frankros/DPI-calc.php

    Try this tool to recalculate, then play, than come back here and say: tidididi you were right :D

    Actually It was simply game bound. In another game I play I have better results with higher DPI.
    And when I professionally edit videos I use very low DPI with standard windows sensitivity to be slow in the speed my mouse moves on timeline so I can jump to wanted frame more precisely if I am not using keyboard shortcuts. So in work environment you mentioned in your earlier post does not apply to me at all.

    Btw I did really try to set my DPI to 800 with in game sensitivity of 12 or 11.. to get the same result as 1900 and 5.. it simply didnt feel more accurate. But then again, I use a proper clean mouse pad where the DPI has less surface errors etc etc..

    I don't know about anyone else but after 8 pages of DPI .. I'm up for a new opt in :mrgreen:

    +1 Uni

  • !Darin!Darin Posts: 304Player
    .sauce wrote: »
    The science of mouse hardware and DPI has not changed at all. I'm not making assumptions, I'm presenting you with evidence. Something you haven't done at all this entire time. I'm done though. Respect, see you in game pie. : )

    And fwiw, I still don't claim that higher DPI is worse, I just said it has the potential to be worse in combination with Windows and game settings. Even then, as I said, the differences would be hard to notice. I also get fighting with in game sensitivities and finding sweet spots. In the end it is preference. What we "feel" is what matters.

    The mouse hardware and sensors changed alot to better in the last 2 years. No idea where you get your facts about it. I am also professionally very interested in sensor improvement in optical applications.

    And sauce no hard feelings but you did make assumptions about how I handled your video link.
    .sauce wrote: »

    3600 DPI, over 4 years ago. This guy isn't selling anything (other than facts). But instead of LISTENING to what he has to say, you glossed over, looked at the date of the video and went in another direction. Listen to what he has to say. That is all the science you need on the subject and you are ignoring it.

    I didn't ignore the stuff that guy said in his video, in fact I presented you the BG information why I think he published such video. If you think it has no PR value, its your opinion I can respect that. But it's not uncommon to present marketing claims packed in scientific presentations. I am not claiming that the high DPI sensors back then were in fact more accurate than Logitech technology btw.
    .sauce wrote: »
    You seriously just keep making stuff up every time some genuine information is sent your way.

    And this is kinda personal I would say.. but I leave it as it is..

    You're right I'll leave the personal stuff out.

    In the end, I'm certainly not arguing that new sensor tech isn't better. It is. All of these new sensors take thousands of pictures a second and how the mouse processes than information determines how accurate it is. But CPI is finite. It always has been an always will be. There is no disputing that. 1900 CPI today is exactly the same as 1900 CPI 10 years ago. How the mouse operates to process movement and send those 1900 counts per inch has certainly changed, but that is all improvement BEFORE the data is converted to CPI and not relevant to our discussion. That is all I've tried to say in the last few pages. CPI has not changed. What's more, you have yet to address that increasing CPI on the mouse then reducing sensitivity on the PC is taking RAW data, the ACCURATE data, from the mouse and using software to reduce it's distance traveled. Again, I'm sure that IF there is a reduction in accuracy/quality, it's at a micro level that most if not all wouldn't be able to notice, but still. The potential is there, and for what? If native is so important, why are you letting windows/game change that data?
    Hello sir, excellent accuracy.

    LETS GO PENS
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